Hello and a few questions

jumbodogs

Member
Hello everyone

I have been lurking around the site for a week or so and thought I would introduce my self and also like to say thanks. This site has a ton of information ( maybe to much my brain hurts :) ) I am really excited about getting going with automating my home but I see that to do this I am going to have to read up a whole lot more. The first two things I would like to get setup are security system and whole house audio. I would also like to automate lighting, have cameras at the front door, touch screens mounted around the house, caller ID announcements on the audio system and pretty much all the great things I am reading about here but the my main goal at the moment is to get security and audio setup.

So I have a few questions

1. Do I need to have a controller board for automation of my house? (like the ELK M1? )

2. Can I just use a PC and some software to control everything? ( HomeSeer ? )

3. What would be the advantage of having say an ELK M1 vs just using a PC?

4. Do I need to buy something like the Russound for whole house audio and intercom setup? I won't need keypads that come with those system as there will be either a TV to control the audio or a touchscreen mounted in each zone I want to control. Seems like a waste to get something like the Russound if I don't use the keypads but maybe I am missing something.

5. I have 5 windows, 2 doors in front of house and 2 french doors in back of house that I would like to get setup with a security system. If I want my security system to be tied into my home automation system do I have to go with something like the ELK or is there something cheaper out there I can do. ( seems like the ELK is security plus HA which if I use a PC I wouldn't need? )

Thanks for any help I can get with this and I am looking forward to being an active member on this board.
 
Well I am no expert but have recently installed an Elk system. I had been using a PC for my home automation and whole house audio system already for years. The advantage of having the Elk is that not only does it serve as a security system it can also handle any critical home automation functions. No matter how good your PC solution is there are always glitches. As good as the Elk is there are somethings that it just can't do like Caller ID Text To Speech announcements and weather. The beauty of the Elk is that it integrates seamlessly into your home automation system with its serial or ethernet port access and control. I used to use Homeseer but I now use Girder 5 for all my PC based home automation needs. That with Netremote for my touchscreen graphical user interface along with the Elk gives me complete control (Girder 5 has a very robust Elk plugin).

My showcase has to be updated but it will give you some ideas.

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showto...st=0#entry18312

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showto...t=15#entry85476
 
Welcome!

I agree with John that the Elk is a great product. If you want a security system then you are going to need something, and I imagine by the time you cost it all out, the incremental cost of the Elk is very small for the robustnesses and feature set it brings. I'm very happy with the one I installed last year - the best thing you can say about it is 'it just works ... and keeps working'. Sure, there are other ways of doing things that might save a few $ in the short term, but I'd be willing to bet that they would come at the cost of a lot of robustness and hair pulling down the line.

Even with an M1 you are still going to want software to co-ordinate everything. There are a number of choices ranging from free (Premise Systems) to not so free (Homeseer, Netremote, CQC, Mainlobby). Finding the right set of tradeoffs for your system is not always an easy choice!

For the whole house audio there are cheaper solutions than Russound. I decided I didn't need fancy keypads in every room since there would be better ways of controlling them. You could look at the HTD MCA66 line, or Nuvo's Breathe Audio. Both are reasonably priced and offer RS232 control. You can buy the MCA66 amp/controller without keypads, though I haven't tested a zone without a keypad connected on mine. I wouldn't too quickly dismiss having local hardwired control ... being able to simply press a button to mute the audio when urgently needed is a good failsafe for when the touchscreen decides to choose that moment to hang!
 
You will need some sort of hardware that will monitor your doors and windows be it a Caddx, Elk, or other security system. As John said above, do not rely on a PC for this need.

The reason a lot of people go with the Elk is they can also interface other home automation related sensors including float monitors, doorbells, washer/dryer, etc...

Many people use home automation software for what I like to call ginger-bread items such as Email notification, touch screen interface, custom voice announcements, caller ID, etc... I would suggest looking at CQC and HomeSeer (the two popular products here). You will need some type of interface for your touchscreens. CQC is an all inclusive package for this purpose, HomeSeer (what I use) is also a great package, and they will be coming out with HSTouch which is a touch screen interface plugin. Right now a lot of people use MainLobby to interface with HomeSeer for touchscreens, but this currently requires additional software. A lot will depend on just how fancy you want your touchscreens to be. All of these packages have trial versions which you should install and drive around a bit to get a feel of what they are like.

For your audio, there are a lot of options such as a home brewed setup (such as one John uses), Russound, Nuvo, etc... The important thing here is that the system interfaces with your home automation software selection so it can be used with the touchscreen setup.

You will want additional hardware as you expand your automation needs such as a caller ID capability. The key in getting a package is to make sure it can easily expand with your future needs.

Also, what are your programming capabilities and overall budget for this project? What wiring do you currently have in place? Will you be able to install additional wiring?
 
1. Do I need to have a controller board for automation of my house? (like the ELK M1? )

For automating most things, you need hardware to "do things'. A system like an ELK has input sensors that detect state (motion, temp, water, etc) and output devices (relays, integration with other hardware systems like lighting / thermostats etc). You could use a PC to control a myriad of hardware devices (dependent on the scope of your automation project) or have the PC talk to the controller that talks to the hardware.



2. Can I just use a PC and some software to control everything? ( HomeSeer ? )

You will still need hardware for most automation tasks. Software like Homeseer (or MainLobby / CQC etc) can do much more than what an embedded controller can do, especially when you tie in Intenet content (like weather), and media devices. The software offerings integrate across many more hardware and software apps than the hardware embedded controllers and provide a higher degree of customization and control scenario capability. Maybe more than what you need, but that's for you to decide.


3. What would be the advantage of having say an ELK M1 vs just using a PC?

The ELK can be programmed for base core functions and the PC can be used for all other. The ELK gets you an insurance discount as it's an "approved" device for security monitoring. The insurance alone can pay for the ELK panel over a few years. And you still need to buy hardware for the PC based system.


4. Do I need to buy something like the Russound for whole house audio and intercom setup?

For whole house audio, you can go with MainLobby / MusicLobby / J River Media Center software combo which allows for a PC sound card channels to be controlled from multiple locations with independent or synched audio zones. The sound card output can go to "dumb" amplifiers that feed the high level signal to the speakers in each zone. Intercom can be added through a microphone at the touchscreen displaying MainLobby user interface - which would require some hardware / software customization to do well. The Music side is "easy".

Whole house video distribution is similar to the Music, but you would be outputting video from a PC's graphics card and sound card and then distributing that to a high definition display and audio system. This can be one PC to one display, or one PC (or two / three) to a video matrix switcher to multiple "watch" locations.

From BSR's post above "Right now a lot of people use MainLobby to interface with HomeSeer for touchscreens, but this currently requires additional software. "
True, but even more use just MainLobby software (no Homeseer software) tied to an ELK (or no "automation" controller - just seperate hardware managed by the PC) than integrate MainLobby with Homeseer. But, the integration between Homeseer and MainLobby is also very popular.
 
Thanks for the advice guys!!


For the whole house audio there are cheaper solutions than Russound. I decided I didn't need fancy keypads in every room since there would be better ways of controlling them. You could look at the HTD MCA66 line, or Nuvo's Breathe Audio. Both are reasonably priced and offer RS232 control. You can buy the MCA66 amp/controller without keypads, though I haven't tested a zone without a keypad connected on mine. I wouldn't too quickly dismiss having local hardwired control ... being able to simply press a button to mute the audio when urgently needed is a good failsafe for when the touchscreen decides to choose that moment to hang!

I will look into those options.

Also, what are your programming capabilities and overall budget for this project? What wiring do you currently have in place? Will you be able to install additional wiring?

I have done a little in C#, worked abit with Autoit, and played around with different scripting software. I do computer repair on the side and say I have built around 150-200 computers. I am much better at building a computer then programing but I can get my way around programming. I am also pretty handy so I am not opposed to cutting holes in walls and running wire where it is needed. My friend also runs wires data lines for a living and is great at it so I can always tap into him for advice, tools, and help running the wires. My budget for this year is around $1000-$1500. I hate charging things so for must stuff I will wait til I have the cash. Total budget not sure but I will probably have another $2000-$3000 to spend again around beginning of next year. Lots of projects to do on the list that my wife is gona want to do be for I spend alot on this. Putting in front walk way and back patio this year and putting stone on front of the house next year. $7000-$10000 there

Any advice on how I could get my wife to let me spend that on HA system :)

Just to make sure I am clear on this everyone is recommending to use the ELK not just because of reliability but also because it will enable me to add more features to my HA system. If its just reliability I would be ok with using a PC for the automation and buying a cheaper alarm system. I understand that a PC needs to restart and hard drives can fail and what not but to me that really isn't that big of a deal. I live in a quiet town so if I went a day without my alarm that would be ok. If not going with the ELK is gona limit what I can do then I most certainly will be getting one. Most important thing for me is once something is in I don't want to redo it.

Again thanks for all the help with this!!!
 
hmmm, you don't have much budget for your ambitions listed in your first post :).

There are cheaper alarm systems, but, as it sounds like you will expand when funds become available, I would get the Elk. I have experience with a Caddx NX8e and an Elk M1 and have also interfaced both with HomeSeer. I would easily recommend the Elk over the cheaper Caddx just for ease of programming alone. The Elk will also give you a lot more options in the future.

You should establish priorities and may want to "live with" limited capabilities, again depending on funding. For instance, the Elk keypad has multiple function keys that you can interface to your automation system that you may want to use in lieu of touchscreens (touchscreens are expensive and at least you will have some custom functions available at the keypads till you can afford them).
 
No not everyone is recommending using an Elk. I use HomeSeer and here's my site. http://www.ruppworld.com
Much of this can't be done with elk. If you need a security system then the ELK is a very good system but is over kill for many and especially for those of us who have no need for a security system.

For example here's a current thread on whole house audio and a really nifty way to have individual room volume control from the pc as well as dual inputs.
http://board.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=128282

There are simply way too many things you can do with a PC that you can't with a hardware controller. Many will say that PC based home automation is not as "bullet" proof as a hardware controller and while this may be true my HomeSeer system has been up and running for 8 straight years with no down days. I switched PC's once in this time frame. So do yourself a favor and visit around and read about other software capabilities and then make an informed decision.
 
At the end of the day you have to decide what you think is best for your needs and budget. I have an Elk M1G and have been very pleased with it. It has been rock solid and the Elk people are very DIY friendly, as is evidenced by the support and advice offered here by Spanky, along with plenty of support from other folks on this site. I also like the fire alarm capabilities the Elk offers, although I have not done anything with that yet (Shame on me). I use the Elk for critical functions, and a PC with HomeSeer for other things such as caller ID announcements, whole house audio, etc. It is possible to read and write to the Elk I/O via HomeSeer which can provide HomeSeer with access to any of the I/O it needs. Much of what I do uses the Elk I/O, there is not much available that is more reliable than a copper wire, although a hardwired approch is not for everyone.

Brian
 
One way or the other, you have to have some kind of hardware to interface the PC to the real world of zone inputs for switches, burglar, and fire devices, alarm outputs, keypads, touchscreens, temperature sensors, RF wireless inputs, lighting and the list can go on and on.

A complete security and automation system normally has a hardware controller to handle critical operations like security/fire, basic lighting, HVAC, and critical outputs like fish pond filter/pumps. These operations should not fail without loss or discomfort.

Advanced features like caller ID to speech, lighting scenes, customized graphics on touchscreens, music library... are handled by a dedicated server/PC. I do not recommend putting your family computer in charge of the PC home automation operations.

Whatever way you decide, have fun. It is addicting and there is always a new gadget that just came out!!
 
Don't forget about Sonos as a Whole House audio option. It can't be integrated with HA software or hardware but it does work.

Sonos allows you to have 32 zones and one controller, or multiple controllers if need be.


http://www.sonos.com
 
Did some more reading and kinda have a feel on how I would like to have my system layout to be. This is what I was thinking

My downstairs is pretty wide open so what I would like to do is have a touchscreen mounted near where we walk in that I can use to control my lights, music, security and all that.( by touchscreen I mean a 15" ELO touchscreen I got from ebay that is hooked up to a computer) One thing I was wondering about is can I just use the computer touchscreen to arm and disarm my security or should I not depend on a computer for something like that and just get keypad.

I also will have a computer hooked up to my TV downstairs so I was thinking that between the touchscreen mounted near kitchen and computer hooked to TV, downstairs should be covered. ( Its only about a 1000 sqf downstairs and floor plan is open)

My upstairs has 3 bedrooms and my pool/bar room:

I will have computer hooked up to TV in master but probably go with another touchscreen mounted in wall hooked up to a computer for more control but was thinking maybe I could just use a nice touchscreen controller maybe something like Harmony 1000. Can that be used to control my whole HA system? If not I will just go with touchscreen setup.

Second bedroom is my computer room .... Tons of computers ( 3 desktops and my 3 laptops spend most of there time in there) I will just use one of the computers in there for controlling my system.

Third room is guest room we hardly use ... This is way down the list for doing things in there.

Pool/Bar room I use but I still need to put hardwood down so this room can wait for now.

I have a pretty big walk in closet in my master that I will use to keep server computer and wire everything to.


I did some looking around and found a DSC 32-Zone Wireless-Ready Alarm Kit for $160. Anyone use this? I only did a little reading so far and I think there is a plugin for homeseer to control it but was wondering if anyone was using it and could give me some thoughts on it. I wonder how well the plugin works?

I saw INSTEON-Compatible M1 Gold Kit w/Flush-Mount Keypad for around $675. Going to be hard to try to stay on budget with this but it does sound pretty cool and alot easier to setup.

So trying to stay around $1500 this is what I am looking at so far

Kitchen computer with touchscreen
$107 for 15" screen
$250 for Case, Dual Core Cpu, 1Gig Ram, Motherboard ... I could cut this down to just getting case and using spare parts I have around but would be nice to have new computer :eek:


$199 for HomeSeer HS2 Home Control Software
Think this comes with a basic touchscreen software. Thinking I can use this at first then look into maybe something like MainLobby. I need to do more reading on the software .... not to sure about it. I think you use this with something like Homeseer or can you just use MainLobby? I will be doing some more reading on this later today.


The downstairs TV is setup with an old XBOX that I modded that runs XBOX Media Center. This allows me to watch movies, stream music and pictures. I can get by with this for now but my wife kinda hates to use it. Would like to put computer here but don't think this is going to make it into the budget this year.

So this leaves me with about $1000 for security and whole house audio. So I guess my options are to get the ELK and ditch the audio system this year. ( $1000 sound correct for ELK and some sensors? ) Or go with something like the DSC 32-Zone Wireless-Ready Alarm Kit for $160 plus some more sensors. Need to cover 4 doors and 5 windows on the downstairs.

Going with the cheaper alarm would give me about $700 for audio setup?

I would like to have 4 zones for now and down the road would need to expand to 6 zones.

Zone 1/-Garage- 2 speakers ... Thinking I will look on ebay for some speakers ... nothing special is needed here.
Zone 2/-Front Porch 2 ceiling speakers / Pool 1 rock speaker / back patio 1 ceiling speaker
Zone 3/ -Pool room/bar / - I already have 5.1 home theater tuner and speakers
Zone 4/ -Master bedroom/bath / 2 ceiling speakers in bedroom and 1 in bath

---------------- Zone 5 and 6 can be added later------------------

Zone 5/ -Kitchen 1 ceiling speaker / Dinning room that wife has turned into salon -- 1 or 2 ceiling speakers not sure
Zone 6/ - Guest Room / 1 ceiling speaker

So I think I will need 7 ceiling speakers. I saw some somewhere for around $35-40 a pop. 1 rock speaker not sure of cost on this but I would like this to be a decent speaker ( I know when I say decent that it is a very subjective kinda of thing ... what I think might sound good is junk to somebody else but anyway I will still take some suggestions ) I will also need some kinda of amp to power the speakers and some kind of IR setup I am guessing to control the tuner/amps I get.
7 ceiling speakers $250 + 1 rock speaker $100? = $350 Leaves me with $350 for tuner/amps and IR control.


Ok I think this post is long enough. Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read all this.
 
Just a wild guess but I doubt the $160 DSC kit comes with an RS-232 serial or Ethernet LAN interface. It needs some sort of connection interface to permit your HA program to control it. The ELK M1 comes with a serial interface ... and a whole lot more.

If you're planning to install everything you've described, may I suggest you start with the M1 ... it will keep you busy for awhile. :eek: After you master it, you can add the other bells and whistles like HA software, touchscreens, whole-home audio, etc.

If you're itching to hook up your ELO touchscreen and control the M1, you can use Premise Home Control (free) using my ELK M1 driver. It will save you at least $200 and may be all you need until you outgrow it and want a sexier UI ... then you can move on to MainLobby, HomeSeer, CQC, etc.

I think it is important to handle this project in "bite-size" pieces instead of buying and installing a car-load of gear in one shot. As you develop expertise, your preferences will evolve; what looked like a good buy initially may become more fodder for eBay. Take it one step at a time and start with the M1.
 
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