DVR Solutions / Suggestions

What is the best way to alleviate the problem of only having dual tuner DVR ability? Currently we have a single Comcast HD/DVR box, and a secondary HD STB (w/o DVR). I know it wont be long and Im going to need to swap the secondary STB to one with DVR, or find another DVR solution all together. Being we have the single DVR now, and its dual-tuner ability, we can only record 1 show, while watching another. There are times when, between my wife and I, that we have 3-4 shows that are all on at the same time. Do I 1) Get the second DVR and a matrix switcher so I can basically pick what STB streams to the main living room TV (because we obviously dont want to have to change rooms to watch different shows depending on what box they were recorded on). Or 2) Is there better DVR solution all together (ie. server?) - Im guessing that there is something in this area that can do it, but Im not that up to date on the whole server/HTPC stuff, etc. and how a PC could handle multiple feeds at the same time either.

NOTE: Watching less TV is not a suitable suggestions as my goal is to make my brain similar to the consistency of a marshmellow.... haha.. j/k

In all honesty we really dont watch all that much TV, maybe 6-8 hours a week total would be my guess (between the two of us).. it just so happens that many of the shows we watch occur at the same time on the same nights at the same time. Usually, Sunday, Monday, and Thursday. Its usually not more than 3 shows, but obviously a problem for a dual tuner DVR that can only support 2.

A lot of it is also trying to record all instances of a particular series that comes on as well, even if they are re-runs (because I dont want to have to pull up the info on each one before selecting it to record). I would rather be able to record all instances of particular shows, so I go through them when I get the time to sit down and watch, and see if there were any episodes that I had previously missed - ie. sitcoms that have been on multiple years. Its also nice to have them all DVR'd so we dont have to sit through the commercials - DVR FF is great!!

Ive read very little (because I havent looked very hard yet) on devices such as SageTV. Should something like this be what I might look for? I guess I need to get a little smarter on the Sage product and find out what it really is and does.

Discussion/suggestions???

Are those concurrent shows on at future times? Can your DVR record more than one show at once, or is it record one/watch one? Is your current DVR running out of space? Wondering why it doesn't just auto-schedule future recordings.

I obviously think Sage is awesome, it's primary features above the various Comcast/DirecTV DVR's is:

1) Easy to add additional tuners, esp if you live near a broadcast tower and can get OTA (off-the-air), and your shows are broadcast. I have 3 HD-OTA tuners, 1 DirecTV SD tuner, and 1 DirecTV HD tuner. 95% of our shows are NBC/ABC/CBS/FOX/PBS, which is available free OTA so the 3 HD-OTA tuners typically grab those.
2) Easy to add additional hard disk space. MUCH easier than those DVRs, I was just reading up on them and even though you can add an external HD, some still require "moving" shows from DVR to hard disk and back in order to watch them. (aka, you cannot watch directly off the HD)

But, to do playback, the safest thing is to get the SageTV Extenders (HD-100 or HD-200). That's what you put at the TV location, don't try and have the PC do the video rendering/playback as that's what makes PCs go boom. A SageTV box can also handle other server duties (ie, CQC) so it's not like you need a dedicated PC for that.

I would suggest you look into SageTV, a PC based tuner/DVR solution. You can add more tuners (SD or HD) as needed and can expand storage as needed.

http://www.sagetv.com/

Also don't forget that you can still watch the lower channels (<100) without any STB at all. Before i had SageTV i would have the Comcast STB record 2 shows and i would watch the 3rd directly on the TV. If you haven't done so already, just split the cable before the STB and plug 1 leg directly to the TV.

SageTV has quite a large following in this forum. Alternat to SageTV that are similar in solution (i.e. PC based) that I have heard of but not investigated much as: BeyondTV, Myth or something similar sounding, Microsoft Media Center. I have have left a few out.

SageTV (and likely the others as well) would be smart enough to differentiate between First Runs and Rerun. It's not standard but you can load a 'plugin' of sorts that allows commerical skippng. It in facts processed the recording and marks the beginning and end of the commericals and you can skip them altogether without even using fast forward. After about 6 montsh of SageTV usage i recently loaded this function and it's been a real hit.

To be honest a SageTV setup can get a bit pricey, but it all depends on what your needs are. The beauty is it's expandability. Based on your description above it would say you need:
- SageTV media Center License $80
- PC to act as a server (PC would need to be on 24/7 and needs to have some free PCI slots)
- HD tuners card for SageTV server (HD tuners will received unencrypted HD). These come in single and dual tuner card configurations. (e.g $99 for Hauppage HVR-1600)
- Hauppage HD-PVR $225 (takes component output from your Comcast HD STB so you can record any channel the box puts out)
- HD STB (which you already have)
- SageTV HD Theater (to display whatver you recorded or live TV on the TV) $200
- Possible some additional hard drive space. HD video recording is about 6GB/hour i believe. 1TB drives are getting cheap thoug..so storage shouldn't be too big of a concern.

In the end you may be better of just getting another STB or get some of the new Tivo's that are networked together. However SageTV is a real slick interface, very customizable and my wife and i love it.

IVB said:

Are those concurrent shows on at future times? Can your DVR record more than one show at once, or is it record one/watch one? Is your current DVR running out of space? Wondering why it doesn't just auto-schedule future recordings.

I obviously think Sage is awesome, it's primary features above the various Comcast/DirecTV DVR's is:

1) Easy to add additional tuners, esp if you live near a broadcast tower and can get OTA (off-the-air), and your shows are broadcast. I have 3 HD-OTA tuners, 1 DirecTV SD tuner, and 1 DirecTV HD tuner. 95% of our shows are NBC/ABC/CBS/FOX/PBS, which is available free OTA so the 3 HD-OTA tuners typically grab those.
2) Easy to add additional hard disk space. MUCH easier than those DVRs, I was just reading up on them and even though you can add an external HD, some still require "moving" shows from DVR to hard disk and back in order to watch them. (aka, you cannot watch directly off the HD)

But, to do playback, the safest thing is to get the SageTV Extenders (HD-100 or HD-200). That's what you put at the TV location, don't try and have the PC do the video rendering/playback as that's what makes PCs go boom. A SageTV box can also handle other server duties (ie, CQC) so it's not like you need a dedicated PC for that.

Click to expand...

First off - Thanks for the response..

Generally the Sunday, Monday, Thursday shows are the NEW EPISODES of a particular season, and usually arent broadcast again until after the season is over (ie. Between the wife and I: 24, CSI: Miami, Overhaulin', Street Customs, Greys Anatomy, Private Practice, Without a Trace.... you get the idea). Its usually when she starts setting up continued recording for ANY INSTANCE of two shows (usually CSI:Miami and Without A Trace) at ALL TIMES on any channel, that both are on and recording on both tuner channels, removing the ability for me to watch anything else during these times.. ... but there are also few instances where more than 2 of the above shows are on at the same time/same day.... which again provides conflict with the single, dual-tuner DVR.

The SA 8300HD can record more than 1 show at a time, but it has to be tuned to at least 1 of the channels (when recording 2). Basically ends up being a record one while you watch another. I recall looking through the vents of the 8300HD box when we first got it, and I believe its a 80GB SATA HDD, but in any case, we havent run into any issue with running out of space at all.

Most all of the shows we watch are probably broadcast OTA in our area (I dont currently have an antenna to check - and havent, because I currently dont have any way to record them anyway, so we just watch them through the 8300HD Comcast box). I suppose if I added an antenna and tuners, I could certainly integrate those with a Sage setup.. the only question/concern I have then, is what other hardware (other than antenna and whatever tuners) is needed to provide the ability to record these shows to a PC/Server??

With the Sage setup, is the data recorded on a server machine? Or directly onto a Sage box (then streamed to the Sage Extender?)?

Can I still use the 8300HD to stream non-OTA stuff to this setup? Anything else needed there?

Also, Ive been wanting to look into getting OTA signals anyway, are there any specific places I should look for an antenna? What do you guys suggest?

Sorry for so many questions... just trying to get my head around this.

MavRic said:

I would suggest you look into SageTV, a PC based tuner/DVR solution. You can add more tuners (SD or HD) as needed and can expand storage as needed.

http://www.sagetv.com/

Also don't forget that you can still watch the lower channels (<100) without any STB at all. Before i had SageTV i would have the Comcast STB record 2 shows and i would watch the 3rd directly on the TV. If you haven't done so already, just split the cable before the STB and plug 1 leg directly to the TV.

SageTV has quite a large following in this forum. Alternat to SageTV that are similar in solution (i.e. PC based) that I have heard of but not investigated much as: BeyondTV, Myth or something similar sounding, Microsoft Media Center. I have have left a few out.

SageTV (and likely the others as well) would be smart enough to differentiate between First Runs and Rerun. It's not standard but you can load a 'plugin' of sorts that allows commerical skippng. It in facts processed the recording and marks the beginning and end of the commericals and you can skip them altogether without even using fast forward. After about 6 montsh of SageTV usage i recently loaded this function and it's been a real hit.

To be honest a SageTV setup can get a bit pricey, but it all depends on what your needs are. The beauty is it's expandability. Based on your description above it would say you need:
- SageTV media Center License $80
- PC to act as a server (PC would need to be on 24/7 and needs to have some free PCI slots)
- HD tuners card for SageTV server (HD tuners will received unencrypted HD). These come in single and dual tuner card configurations. (e.g $99 for Hauppage HVR-1600)
- Hauppage HD-PVR $225 (takes component output from your Comcast HD STB so you can record any channel the box puts out)
- HD STB (which you already have)
- SageTV HD Theater (to display whatver you recorded or live TV on the TV) $200
- Possible some additional hard drive space. HD video recording is about 6GB/hour i believe. 1TB drives are getting cheap thoug..so storage shouldn't be too big of a concern.

In the end you may be better of just getting another STB or get some of the new Tivo's that are networked together. However SageTV is a real slick interface, very customizable and my wife and i love it.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the hardware rundown. I do currently have a somewhat older Dell Dimension PC that I am hoping to use for something (most likely HA, as I dont think the motherboard has any SATA ports) but it MIGHT suffice for a temp testing until I got something dedicated. I currently have this PC, along with my main daily used PC running 24/7 already, so not an issue. I'm in FL where power is currently cheap so I dont mind running both.

Is the SageTV HD Theater one of the "extenders"?

My Sage system in its current state is almost exactly as you describe. I have a HD Homerun (HDHR) 2 tuner network connect fed from a Radio Shack VU90 antenna in the attic. I am a good 40-60 miles from the transmitters. I need to add a third tuner as there are sometimes shows on all (ABC, NBC and CBS) channels. Check www.antennaweb.org for an idea of your local stations and that will give you an idea of what antenna - but usually the bigger the better. I have 2 HD100's as well. Yes, the show is recorded on the server and sent to HD100's over Cat5. Now I need to redo the system and add in my sat stuff with an HDPVR, etc.

My gut tells me that SageTV can *really* help you, i'm in a very similar boat. 24/Miami/etc. Check antennaweb.org to see how far you are from the broadcast towers, and if you're anything near (ie, 25 miles) then those HD-OTA tuners will be your friend. I'm building my in-laws a SageTV unit, and i'm getting them 2 HD-OTA tuners and a regular tuner cuz it's cheap ($100/tuner).

drvnbysound said:

Most all of the shows we watch are probably broadcast OTA in our area (I dont currently have an antenna to check - and havent, because I currently dont have any way to record them anyway, so we just watch them through the 8300HD Comcast box). I suppose if I added an antenna and tuners, I could certainly integrate those with a Sage setup.. the only question/concern I have then, is what other hardware (other than antenna and whatever tuners) is needed to provide the ability to record these shows to a PC/Server??

With the Sage setup, is the data recorded on a server machine? Or directly onto a Sage box (then streamed to the Sage Extender?)?

Click to expand...

Record directly to a PC (ie, server), but as mentioned above it takes very little CPU so if you already do CQC/etc you can just use that one. The Sage Extender retrieves it from there kinda like a file server.

Can I still use the 8300HD to stream non-OTA stuff to this setup? Anything else needed there?

Click to expand...

My advice is to centralize everything onto SageTV, makes life much easier. You could downgrade to STBs, or somehow setup that DVR to output a single channel to a Hauppauge HD-PVR capture device which is connected to your PC via USB. A single GUI to do all recordings is priceless, esp since you can start ripping DVDs and then really have a single UI for video stuff.

Also, Ive been wanting to look into getting OTA signals anyway, are there any specific places I should look for an antenna? What do you guys suggest?

Click to expand...

start by checking antennaweb.org to see what type of antenna you need based on your address. Then post back here with the antenna type; might be as simple as a Terk from RadioShack, or as "complex" as a ChannelMaster 4228 from (local electrical shop or online place).

MavRic said:

Also don't forget that you can still watch the lower channels (<100) without any STB at all. Before i had SageTV i would have the Comcast STB record 2

Click to expand...

that appears to be going away, at least for us in the SF bay area (and i think i read somewhere Seattle is getting converted as well so this may be nationwide)

http://www.mercurynews.com/tv/ci_11620152

Is there a limit as to how many programs are recording at any given time? Obviously there are hardware requirements (tuners) needed for each program, but theoretically, if I COULD add 5 tuners, could I actually record from each of those to the server simultaneously?

I assume yes, but looking for a definitive answer

SageTV here too, this is part of the reason why we differed on your wiring method, panel vs. rack. In my case I only have 2 RG6QS (in case I every want Sat TV) that come from the demarc to the attic and then to the SageTV server where all cable boxes and whatnot live. I then have 2 Cat5 that goes to an alarm can with a switch that all the extenders connect to. The second Cat5 is for IR distribution if I choose to go that route, this would allow SageTV to turn the TVs on/off and whatnot. Thats only 3-4 wires between the wall and the rack, not hard to run through flexible conduit. I have more of course for other services but for whole home AV distribution I really only needed 1 RG6QS and 1 Cat5e/Cat6 the second one I don't even use. I use an inexpensive Linksys 8 port workgroup switch in an alarm can providing room for 7 media clients which I only have 5.

drvnbysound said:

Is there a limit as to how many programs are recording at any given time? Obviously there are hardware requirements (tuners) needed for each program, but theoretically, if I COULD add 5 tuners, could I actually record from each of those to the server simultaneously?

I assume yes, but looking for a definitive answer

Click to expand...

You are limited by disk throughput basically, I have 5 going at the same time like every Monday night. The limits of consumer stuff is more like 10-12, getting a commercial SCSI storage array you can probably have more tuners then you have channels in your lineup going beyond that is pointless.

CollinR said:

drvnbysound said:

Is there a limit as to how many programs are recording at any given time? Obviously there are hardware requirements (tuners) needed for each program, but theoretically, if I COULD add 5 tuners, could I actually record from each of those to the server simultaneously?

I assume yes, but looking for a definitive answer

Click to expand...

You are limited by disk throughput basically, I have 5 going at the same time like every Monday night. The limits of consumer stuff is more like 10-12, getting a commercial SCSI storage array you can probably have more tuners then you have channels in your lineup going beyond that is pointless.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your responses. I figured that would be the case, and was really only concerned that there may be some sort of software limit with the Sage media server interface, or other that would limit the amount of simultaneous recordings.

Here is a screen shot of my information from the Antennaweb.org site:



CBS had to be an odd-ball and do something different, else everything else that I care about is Yellow: ABC, NBC, FOX

CollinR said:

SageTV here too, this is part of the reason why we differed on your wiring method, panel vs. rack. In my case I only have 2 RG6QS (in case I every want Sat TV) that come from the demarc to the attic and then to the SageTV server where all cable boxes and whatnot live. I then have 2 Cat5 that goes to an alarm can with a switch that all the extenders connect to. The second Cat5 is for IR distribution if I choose to go that route, this would allow SageTV to turn the TVs on/off and whatnot. Thats only 3-4 wires between the wall and the rack, not hard to run through flexible conduit. I have more of course for other services but for whole home AV distribution I really only needed 1 RG6QS and 1 Cat5e/Cat6 the second one I don't even use. I use an inexpensive Linksys 8 port workgroup switch in an alarm can providing room for 7 media clients which I only have 5.

Click to expand...

I need to look back at your other posts on the panel and make sure I follow all of it correctly. Do you have the Sage extenders placed at the locations of the TVs? Or centrally located? I am leaning toward having them centrally located, using an IR blaster or whatever alternative control.

drvnbysound said:

CollinR said:

SageTV here too, this is part of the reason why we differed on your wiring method, panel vs. rack. In my case I only have 2 RG6QS (in case I every want Sat TV) that come from the demarc to the attic and then to the SageTV server where all cable boxes and whatnot live. I then have 2 Cat5 that goes to an alarm can with a switch that all the extenders connect to. The second Cat5 is for IR distribution if I choose to go that route, this would allow SageTV to turn the TVs on/off and whatnot. Thats only 3-4 wires between the wall and the rack, not hard to run through flexible conduit. I have more of course for other services but for whole home AV distribution I really only needed 1 RG6QS and 1 Cat5e/Cat6 the second one I don't even use. I use an inexpensive Linksys 8 port workgroup switch in an alarm can providing room for 7 media clients which I only have 5.

Click to expand...

I need to look back at your other posts on the panel and make sure I follow all of it correctly. Do you have the Sage extenders placed at the locations of the TVs? Or centrally located? I am leaning toward having them centrally located, using an IR blaster or whatever alternative control.

Click to expand...

I have both but most are located at the TV using velcro, my living room however is centrally located as it was easy to setup being it's directly below the rack and 12-15' cables make it.

I prefer the in the room with the TV although not always at the TV, sometimes in the top of a closet sometimes out in the open. I think the biggest factor is if you wish to use an amp and surround sound and if you have a handy place to hide that stuff. Keep in mind the extenders are quite a bit smaller then a normal STB of DVD player.