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#31 BDHall

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:04 AM

Why can't Spanky or someone else at Elk explain all this, and clear up all the confusion for everyone?

Brian

#32 mdonovan

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 07:03 AM

Why can't Spanky or someone else at Elk explain all this, and clear up all the confusion for everyone?

Brian


Elk does seem to have forgotten about cocoontech. When spanky was here he was always very helpful, now I'm getting the impression they are turning away from the DIY crowd. Too bad. The DIY support they had was a major factor in my choosing Elk.

Matt

#33 Dan (electron)

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:19 PM

I just got off the phone with ELK, and besides the look, nothing has changed. Basically, a 3rd party is involved with the website, which caused some confusion. A statement will be posted soon, but after talking to ELK myself, I am convinced there is nothing to worry about.

#34 n8bgb-1

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:41 PM

hello,

When I pressed them, this is the quote I got from a customer service manager who was friendly, but enforcing their new direction -

Quote -
...content that is withheld:

Support Tools: These are marketing tools (to help installers make the sale) and special notifications like promotions through their distributors, etc.

Hookup Diagrams: ALL diagrams are in the M1 or other manuals. These few diagrams help installers hook some of our peripherals to other manufacturer’s controls. We did not want to “advertise” other manufacturer’s controls to the consumer as we want them to request ALL ELK.

Training Courses: these are open to professional installers only since the courses are held at Distributors who only sell to installers.
cont....

#35 n8bgb-1

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 04:42 PM

Cont...

M1 Installer Forum: it is an installer forum, not for consumers. There are forums in the D-I-Y world such as cocoontech.com and others.

Warranty and Limitations: the warranties for a consumer are handled through a Retail Distributor or the Installing Dealer, not direct from ELK. Some do not pass along our exact warranty so we could not list it. We have also had consumers who misconstrued our warranty thinking if we warranted it, the installer or distributor could afford to pass labor and all on at no cost.

Close Quote -

It is what it is. Unless other DIYs express their frustrations as well. I'm new to posting to this forum. I've had my M1G for a few years and usually could find what I needed directly from ELK or other Manufacture sites. Not that I'm a snob, I could read and I didn't get motivated to join here till Elk suggested I use this for in future. So, I suppose that's what turned me into a lurker and why I've posted several times here. I can't seem to get past the feeling that the change is not going to be for the good. I've done my part now, and after several emails to them, ELK knows how I feel. I suggest that others do the same unless I'm still feeling the effects of smoking that crack

#36 Dan (electron)

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 05:55 PM

ELK has been telling DIY people to use CocoonTech.com as a resource for many years, this hasn't changed. In fact, their own forums were very quiet compared with this one. From what I can tell, nothing has changed.

#37 Dan (electron)

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:14 AM

ELK's statement:

There have been a lot of Cocoontech users that are trying to understand what is happening at Elk so I will try to explain. We do monitor the site as we understand it to be a great place for M1 consumers to get help from one another so we try to make sure the help given is accurate. However, we respect that it is YOUR site and not a place for our sales and marketing department to boost sales or add editorial comment if someone wants to vent.

Regarding the new website, we request your patience. Our goal was to update the look on our website and replace the old M1 Dealer site. Knowing this was a huge project that would distract us from providing service to our customers; we sought out a local provider to give us a quicker turnaround. This did not allow the login from the old M1 Dealer site to be used on the new site.

Most of you can understand with anything new there are hiccups. We are working through those as fast as we can. Logins and passwords were part of the default messages in the new web software, but we understood your concerns and have changed those default messages so your information is not emailed out.

Even though we designed our products for the professional installer and only have the bandwidth to technically support the professional installer, we have NOT forgotten that there is a very knowledgeable DIY community that chose to install their own M1 system. In fact, we only authorize retailers that agree to provide technical support to the DIY community, because we want you to have technical support. We are not avoiding nor trying to “lock out” the DIY’s. As long as you provide us with the panel’s serial number and where it was purchased, you will receive access to all documentation and downloads needed to install, update, and manage your M1 system. Once that is done and you receive confirmation of your login access, there is nothing hidden that pertains to supporting your system. Some are concerned that we decided not to include a product forum on our site, but the Cocoontech site is very good and our limited resources prohibit us from monitoring a collection of sites. Again, if you are an M1 consumer, you will have access to all documentation and downloads that you need to install, update, and manage your M1 system.

We hope this helps you to understand that we have not changed our position on our customers just because we chose to provide an updated look to our website.



#38 DotNetDog

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 06:40 PM

Sorry to resurrect this thread...but I have a gripe! I understand the business intent that Elk is after. However, I feel that their "new" policy only creates unnecessary frustration.

I am a "prospective" DYI customer and want to learn as much as possible prior to purchasing the M1 Gold. I requested login credentials but Elk will not issue me a login until I provide a serial number. Yes...I can search and gather the information that I need so Elk's policy only results in frustrating me. It certainly does not prevent me from getting the information..just makes it much more of a pain-in-the-arse than it should be. Thanks a pant loan ELK!

If Elk personnel see this post please provide my feedback to the proper decision makers. Consider your "new" policy and what it actually accomplishes. Personally, I believe that you missed whatever mark you were after.

#39 nov0798

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:28 PM

Sorry to resurrect this thread...but I have a gripe! I understand the business intent that Elk is after. However, I feel that their "new" policy only creates unnecessary frustration.

I am a "prospective" DYI customer and want to learn as much as possible prior to purchasing the M1 Gold. I requested login credentials but Elk will not issue me a login until I provide a serial number. Yes...I can search and gather the information that I need so Elk's policy only results in frustrating me. It certainly does not prevent me from getting the information..just makes it much more of a pain-in-the-arse than it should be. Thanks a pant loan ELK!

If Elk personnel see this post please provide my feedback to the proper decision makers. Consider your "new" policy and what it actually accomplishes. Personally, I believe that you missed whatever mark you were after.


Any issue with posting the Elk documents on this site? Mods?? BTW, what document are you looking for?

#40 Work2Play

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:21 AM

I do understand where Elk is coming from - we've seen it with many of the applications/systems in the HA world; trying to keep up with the installers and keep them happy is their primary business; and for some reason, installers are very threatened by DIY (I still don't know why - the HA people I know are generally supportive).

I also see the flip-side; before I ordered my M1, I had already printed the manuals and read them twice. That's what got me comfortable going with it.

I have noticed and relied on the fact that www.homecontrols.com offers many manuals and install guides on their Specifications tab of any given product - that may be a valuable resource for those looking to dive in.

In the end, I've never heard of Elk not being there to support people who need information, or a distributor (at least the ones used here) who wouldn't provide the information if requested. Sure, it's not just publicly posted on the net - but it's still available. And Elk watches CT, so if you have questions, just post them here - there's plenty of other DIY'ers willing to help, and if an advanced situation comes up, Elk always seems to jump in to help. On top of that, I've heard almost all great stories about Elk supporting their products, even after warranties are up - just because they're trying to do the right thing by people.

I don't regret my decision one bit - I still love my Elk and I'm still expanding it. And, this is an old thread - people always hate change... but if people were having trouble getting what they needed, this would be a much more active topic. People are obviously being taken care of.

#41 mustangcoupe

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 07:53 AM

Any issue with posting the Elk documents on this site? Mods?? BTW, what document are you looking for?



Problem being they are copyrighted documents, and belong to ELK products, we would need their permission to post them here.

#42 DotNetDog

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:01 AM

Nov0798: I've been gathering documents for all of the Elk components (as well as non-Elk parts) that will comprise my security system. I want to learn as much as possible before purchasing anything. In fact, this learning is absolutely neccessary in order properly wire for devices. For instance, I want to include the Elk water shut-off valve. But I needed to understand how it connects in order to be sure I wired for it. Of course, this is only one part...there are many, many more.

Work2Play: I, too, understand why Elk has implemented the policy (as well as other companies). I'm just saying that it does not actually accomplished the "claimed" goal but instead it just creates frustration for potential customers. All of the documentation/information can be obtained (a big thanks to CocoonTech here) but it requires some effort. Why? Wouldn't it make more sense to just allow open access to the manuals? Easy access...no frustration...happy potential customers...sounds like a win-win to me.

By the way, I should mention that I began my research comparing the Elk M1G to the HAI OmniPro. If HAI had made information easier than Elk I very easily could have choosen the OmniPro. I really do think that Elk is not actually accomplishing any goal of keeping their professionals happy. They are merely frustrating consumers that want to learn more about their products. Elk open up access to your documentation!

#43 Dan (electron)

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 11:18 AM

I checked with ELK about this, and their reasons for keeping the docs locked down like this is to prevent from anyone (ab)using this information in order to get into a system, and it doesn't look like this policy will change. They recommend you contact your distributor if you want help planning your system.

#44 DotNetDog

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:50 PM

Dan, I hear you but does this reasoning sound lame to anyone besides me? I mean, if I'm a predator wanting to learn how to bypass an Elk security system then all that I would need to do is contact a distributor and pretend to be configuring a system. My point all along has been that the policy does not achieve the claimed goal...it only creates frustration.

OK, I'll drop this topic now. I've said my peace.

I'm so glad for CocoonTech and the helpful people on here. In spite of ineffectual policies by Elk and other companies, forums like this provide the information that prospective customers (like me) need in order to make informed decision. Thank you CocoonTech and its members!!!

#45 Dan (electron)

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:00 PM

I don't necessarily agree with their policy either, since it follows the 'security through obscurity' model, which rarely works. Hopefully they will change their mind in the near future, but until then, you'll have to use CT ;)




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