SCE Smart Meter and HAI
- Thread starter nexus99
- Start date
The HAI announcement that listed info for their smart grid solutions didn't go into any detail about integration with the existing Omni line of controllers. I also haven't heard if they are actually selling the display or thermostat that their announcement listed. http://smartgrid.homeauto.com/smartgrid/smartgrid.asp
PCA already has some trigger types defined for actions when energy cost is low, mid, high or critical. I would imagine that they will be providing a ZigBee serial interface to attach to the Omni controllers at some point to be able to get this info from the meter. Hopefully there will be options to see current usage as well.
My smart meter was installed in June and I've been waiting to find something that can talk to the dang thing! It's not very smart if I can't talk to it!
PCA already has some trigger types defined for actions when energy cost is low, mid, high or critical. I would imagine that they will be providing a ZigBee serial interface to attach to the Omni controllers at some point to be able to get this info from the meter. Hopefully there will be options to see current usage as well.
My smart meter was installed in June and I've been waiting to find something that can talk to the dang thing! It's not very smart if I can't talk to it!
AnthonyZ
Active Member
Listen, I can't say much on the subject but, if my source is correct (and he should be, I'll leave it at that), HAI isn't going to be doing anyone any favors when it comes to their BS "smart meter" stuff. Well, except for utilities and themselves, of course. The whole smart meter blather raises more bile for me than any other possible subject in this silly little HA world.
My hope is to be able to leverage the smart meter to show my active power consumption. I do plan to install a new thermostat once the new smart meter is installed. I am hoping it can be a HAI thermostat... but that depends on if they release their ZigBee version or not.
From what I see on google ZigBee module item is 65A13-1. But that doesn't seem to be avialable for purchase anywhere. Nor can I find any instructions anywhere of how to configure an Omnistat 2 to communicate with a smartmeter. (Presumably because one that can doesnt exist?) I guess I have till Octoberish to find the right product.
AnthonyZ
Active Member
You know what they say, "Wish in one and and...". I've been following smart meter nonsense for two solid years and there isn't a player in the mix who has YOUR best interests in mind. Ultimately, the smart meter integration that's coming down the pike has nothing to do with HA (or the consumer for that matter). It has everything to do with utility prompted load shed. That's it. I have seen NOTHING to make me think otherwise (savvy marketing is in place to give us a warm fuzzy while they take your money and offer little to nothing in return) and, yes, that includes the info I am getting from inside sources at HAI.
All of the literature I can find around smart meters is aimed at selling the utilities. So I tend to agree that the vast majority of the benefits goes to the utility and the people who make and sell the hardware... but if I can get real time monitoring of my energy use I will be a happy camper. I dont want to install a TED or similar device.
RArbour
Member
Gentlemen,
I am very deeply involved with HAI's Zigbee and Smart Meter involvement. HAI has not been officially released Zigbee at this time for the public, so any information I reveal in this reply may be changed at that release time.
HAI's Zigbee devices indeed do exist. Many of you may have seen demos at select shows. We will be offering both HA and SE varieties.
We are involved with many SE pilots, and the operation of those pilots are really determined from the energy company that is conducting the pilot. In our Zigbee offering we allow the feature where the consumer can turn on/off loads based completely on price. You can set a rule that if the price reaches more than $0.30, turn off that pool pump (completely optional). Unfortunately not all energy companies want this (some have us disable it). Some do not wish to dynamically change the cost of energy, but rather curtail power during peak time. Some pilots dictate that you can only override load events up to 4 times a month, others have no restrictions. Those restrictions are set by the organizers of the pilot, but we at HAI provide devices that have complete consumer functionality but do allow the energy company to set their own restrictions. We recognize to get our products in the pilots we have to allow these restrictions, but also feel that adding in home owner friendly controls so they can dictate how each device operates under each circumstance will be the best option when this markets starts to saturate. We are integrating our HA experience into the SE world, but it is a slow process of acceptance.
In the ideal scenario, the energy company will be charging the home owners a dynamic energy cost based on what is costs them to make that energy (its more expensive to turn on the auxiliary generators during peak times). We feel that if you give the home owner control to change their loads based on price, the market will eventually reduce load on peak times based on price. What is happening with the energy companies right now is they are running small scale pilots with a rigid set of parameters. SE deployment is very expensive (they are subsidizing most devices at this time) so they want to analyze the data under certain conditions to make sure it will solve their needs at a large deployment. That is why they are making these restrictions at this time. The energy companies are also running these pilots with specific manufacturer thermostats, displays, and load controllers. So to answer your question: will HAI's Zigbee SE products work with your smart meter? Depends on who SCE decides on for their pilot.
In the future, when there is a greater scale deployment the consumer will most likely be given the option of what thermostat they want to install. It will be more of a free market. The restrictions will probably be lifted to allow most home owner friendly options. As a device manufacturer we do not control these decisions.
Nexus99,
The only thing I can tell you is we have tested our devices with Itron meters and the best thing you can do as a consumer is voice your interest to SCE in them involving HAI in their upcoming pilots.
I have been in discussion with many energy companies running pilots across the nation, as well as several other countries. I cannot however speak for the utility company and their intentions for their pilots, so your situation may vary. Just my thoughts on where I see the market going based on my extensive experience in the SE world.
Thanks,
Ryan
I am very deeply involved with HAI's Zigbee and Smart Meter involvement. HAI has not been officially released Zigbee at this time for the public, so any information I reveal in this reply may be changed at that release time.
HAI's Zigbee devices indeed do exist. Many of you may have seen demos at select shows. We will be offering both HA and SE varieties.
We are involved with many SE pilots, and the operation of those pilots are really determined from the energy company that is conducting the pilot. In our Zigbee offering we allow the feature where the consumer can turn on/off loads based completely on price. You can set a rule that if the price reaches more than $0.30, turn off that pool pump (completely optional). Unfortunately not all energy companies want this (some have us disable it). Some do not wish to dynamically change the cost of energy, but rather curtail power during peak time. Some pilots dictate that you can only override load events up to 4 times a month, others have no restrictions. Those restrictions are set by the organizers of the pilot, but we at HAI provide devices that have complete consumer functionality but do allow the energy company to set their own restrictions. We recognize to get our products in the pilots we have to allow these restrictions, but also feel that adding in home owner friendly controls so they can dictate how each device operates under each circumstance will be the best option when this markets starts to saturate. We are integrating our HA experience into the SE world, but it is a slow process of acceptance.
In the ideal scenario, the energy company will be charging the home owners a dynamic energy cost based on what is costs them to make that energy (its more expensive to turn on the auxiliary generators during peak times). We feel that if you give the home owner control to change their loads based on price, the market will eventually reduce load on peak times based on price. What is happening with the energy companies right now is they are running small scale pilots with a rigid set of parameters. SE deployment is very expensive (they are subsidizing most devices at this time) so they want to analyze the data under certain conditions to make sure it will solve their needs at a large deployment. That is why they are making these restrictions at this time. The energy companies are also running these pilots with specific manufacturer thermostats, displays, and load controllers. So to answer your question: will HAI's Zigbee SE products work with your smart meter? Depends on who SCE decides on for their pilot.
In the future, when there is a greater scale deployment the consumer will most likely be given the option of what thermostat they want to install. It will be more of a free market. The restrictions will probably be lifted to allow most home owner friendly options. As a device manufacturer we do not control these decisions.
Nexus99,
The only thing I can tell you is we have tested our devices with Itron meters and the best thing you can do as a consumer is voice your interest to SCE in them involving HAI in their upcoming pilots.
I have been in discussion with many energy companies running pilots across the nation, as well as several other countries. I cannot however speak for the utility company and their intentions for their pilots, so your situation may vary. Just my thoughts on where I see the market going based on my extensive experience in the SE world.
Thanks,
Ryan
AnthonyZ
Active Member
This is rarely true, actually. The truth is that in most cases, the utilities are being PAID to conduct such studies. They are subsidized by both federal and local gov't as well as by commercial sponsorship. On top of that, they, in most cases, have received PUC authority to increase rates for consumers to further fund the roll outs. In other words, WE are paying for their studies. Lastly, there has been no regulation put in place to prevent the providers from "double billing" by having the R&D and materials paid for once by the aforementioned subsidies and then to bill, once again, the consumer for "offering" the smart meter. All of this without any obligation to provide any data whatsoever to the consumer. This snowball (and it is a snowball, admittedly with good potential) has fraud written all over it. Don't believe me? Contact any member of the city council of Boulder, CO and find out how happy they are with their relationship with Xcel Energy and the largest pilot program in the nation...
RArbour
Member
We are going to pay for it regardless. Whether is comes from a grant from the federal government (tax dollars), or the profits of the Utility company we funded by being customers is besides my point. My point was that in my experience in numerous pilots I have been involved in, the home owner never received a bill for the devices installed. As a contrast most pilots I have seen offer an incentive such as a rebate or % off the monthly bill. Each utility seems to run their pilot differently, so there may be some that charge for the devices, or potential fraud. In my experiences this has not been the case and I would assume it would be a minority at this time. I have hard numbers from pilots we have been in about the average bill savings per month, so I do know for a fact that in many cases did save money for the home owner.
I am not jaded to not see the utilities companies motivation, profit. It seems like the end goal in my experience is to achieve peak load reduction (savings for the utility company), while reducing the bill for the home owner. Utility companies may have their own agenda, but that is outside the scope of HAI and what we offer.
Lagerhead
Active Member
Agreed. I don't think anybody has an issue with HAI very sensibly pursuing its business opportunities.
But AnthonyZ is, unfortunately, correct. The questions that nobody is asking are the most important ones -- what data will be collected, how will it be used, and who will have access to it.
All of us meet here at CT to improve and advance our applied HA technology. But that technology is always under our control and for our own use. The "Smart Grid" is different, and it is not an accident that it is not "open" and that making it so is turning out to be a struggle, or is impossible. Nobody is discussing the privacy implications of the very personal information that electric consumption represents, even down to the use of particular appliances by time of day. Will this personally identifiable and intimate information be sold, our privacy be damned? What will prohibit the "benevolent politician" who is determined to punish the "wasteful habits of indifferent consumers" from using the Smart Grid for enforcement, directly or via taxes or rates? What controls and safeguards are in place to prevent unauthorized access to that information?
Or worse, what prevents unauthorized access to the Grid, and to individual residences, by malicious individuals? Are we giving unknown persons the keys to the lifeblood of our households?
Reject these questions if you want. But the Smart Grid is not simply an extension of our familiar, friendly Home Automation. It is a different animal altogether.
There are consumer benefits that can be realized from the technology, but the Smart Grid, it seems, is not moving in that direction, and too few are paying attention.
RArbour
Member
Lagerhead,
You raise a good point and definitely not something I have not heard before. I am not a utility advocate, nor against privacy. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, but since I have a great deal of experience in the matter humor me and let me play devil's advocate since I do not know of anyone else in this forum who would do so. Please also note that this is not the official position of HAI, but rather my personal thoughts as a informed citizen.
You mentioned privacy issues, and it is indeed an issue that should not go unchecked. There was other technological advances in the past that brought up similar concerns that you have. The internet allowed the servers to store tons of information about your viewing habits. The cell phone allowed companies to record conversations and even track locations. Clearly nobody will argue that those inventions should of never happen (well no rational person). There does exist legal protect for that information, which is not perfect but is generally accepted. I admit I do not know much about the legality of smart grid (if even some litigation even exists). This is a growing technology but I believe the same legal protection applied to other technologies will follow (if does not already exist). Of course there is still concern if that is enough, but then we get into the argument of benefit over privacy. Unfortunately that is a topic opinions can vary greatly so we each need to be knowledgeable about both sides and make out individual decisions.
Another issue is security. Zigbee SE (different than HA security) brought in security experts to come up with a scheme for high security. This scheme involves hash algorithms, AES encryption, key updates, and EEC encrypted certificates. Is this good enough? I'll defer to the third party security experts for that opinion because I am not knowledgeable enough about the topic. I do know however from having to implement all those algorithms and deal with the encryption day-to-day, it is indeed a secure and I do not currently see any way of sidetracking it without breaking the multiple encryption algorithms. Security seems to be a high priority of the Alliance, so I have faith they will keep updating it when necessary.
I have had the benefit of watching a pilot work successfully in a community. I have talked to many of the home owners involved. I have seen some the benefits it can achieve, and with careful progression forward we can find this technology a welcome addition to our day-to-day lives. Hopefully in parallel with this progression comes public knowledge so we can question each step and increase the chances for this to evolve to a truly beneficiary program.
Ok I think I said "benefit" enough, just wanted to voice the positive aspects to help start develop informed opinions.
Ryan
You raise a good point and definitely not something I have not heard before. I am not a utility advocate, nor against privacy. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying, but since I have a great deal of experience in the matter humor me and let me play devil's advocate since I do not know of anyone else in this forum who would do so. Please also note that this is not the official position of HAI, but rather my personal thoughts as a informed citizen.
You mentioned privacy issues, and it is indeed an issue that should not go unchecked. There was other technological advances in the past that brought up similar concerns that you have. The internet allowed the servers to store tons of information about your viewing habits. The cell phone allowed companies to record conversations and even track locations. Clearly nobody will argue that those inventions should of never happen (well no rational person). There does exist legal protect for that information, which is not perfect but is generally accepted. I admit I do not know much about the legality of smart grid (if even some litigation even exists). This is a growing technology but I believe the same legal protection applied to other technologies will follow (if does not already exist). Of course there is still concern if that is enough, but then we get into the argument of benefit over privacy. Unfortunately that is a topic opinions can vary greatly so we each need to be knowledgeable about both sides and make out individual decisions.
Another issue is security. Zigbee SE (different than HA security) brought in security experts to come up with a scheme for high security. This scheme involves hash algorithms, AES encryption, key updates, and EEC encrypted certificates. Is this good enough? I'll defer to the third party security experts for that opinion because I am not knowledgeable enough about the topic. I do know however from having to implement all those algorithms and deal with the encryption day-to-day, it is indeed a secure and I do not currently see any way of sidetracking it without breaking the multiple encryption algorithms. Security seems to be a high priority of the Alliance, so I have faith they will keep updating it when necessary.
I have had the benefit of watching a pilot work successfully in a community. I have talked to many of the home owners involved. I have seen some the benefits it can achieve, and with careful progression forward we can find this technology a welcome addition to our day-to-day lives. Hopefully in parallel with this progression comes public knowledge so we can question each step and increase the chances for this to evolve to a truly beneficiary program.
Ok I think I said "benefit" enough, just wanted to voice the positive aspects to help start develop informed opinions.
Ryan
I don't believe that what SoCal Edison is doing would be considered a pilot at this point. They have rolled out 1.3 million smart meters and are continuing down the road to roll them out to all of their customers.
www.sce.com/smartconnect
www.sce.com/smartconnect
I am very interested in release dates for the technology. As that my need will materialize in the next 3 months I will want to make buying decisions. Please pass that on.
RArbour
Member
Nexus99,
I am separating the deployment of Smart meters and pilot of Zigbee devices in the home. Other companies have similar smart meter roll out numbers but have only setup a few thousand homes with Zigbee devices (thermostats, displays, and load controllers). Most smart meters do not use Zigbee to communicate back home (cell, pager network, proprietary RF, power line, etc). I do not know SCE's plans, but I am aware of a few other companies that have already rolled out 500,000+ Zigbee capable meters, but are just getting started with their in the home Zigbee pilots.
Ryan
I have been waiting sometime to be be able to figure out exactly what my energy consumption is. I wanted to know which items in the house use "X" amount of energy at any given time of day both now and historically. Promises of companies tying into the "smart grid" got tiresome. No one, Utilities or otherwise, know what the other guys are doing it seems.
I then came across the TED 5000. I purchased it a month ago for @ $250. It does EVERYTHING I need it to do to figure out what each light, appliance, A/C unit, pump, dimmed light, fan, audio system, home theater, etc. costs to run. I also go the display that I can monitor at a glance in my kitchen what my consumption is at that moment, what it is for the day, etc. Using this in conjunction with my newly installed smart meter, I can compare my daily usage with what my power company is going to charge me...on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. I don't really see what any benefit would be to tie it in to my OmniPro II. The only thing I am am still waiting for to tie into my OmniPro II is a KwikSet wireless lock that was announced a year or so ago....but again...no one seems to know anything about it!!
I then came across the TED 5000. I purchased it a month ago for @ $250. It does EVERYTHING I need it to do to figure out what each light, appliance, A/C unit, pump, dimmed light, fan, audio system, home theater, etc. costs to run. I also go the display that I can monitor at a glance in my kitchen what my consumption is at that moment, what it is for the day, etc. Using this in conjunction with my newly installed smart meter, I can compare my daily usage with what my power company is going to charge me...on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. I don't really see what any benefit would be to tie it in to my OmniPro II. The only thing I am am still waiting for to tie into my OmniPro II is a KwikSet wireless lock that was announced a year or so ago....but again...no one seems to know anything about it!!
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