Any word on new ELK products??
- Thread starter signal15
- Start date
mustangcoupe
Senior Member
their always tight lipped but I agree it has been very quiet on their front except the redesign of their website
iostream212
Active Member
what would you want to see? i would like an update to the rules language/engine. more options and more robust.
I think that there is just so much memory to work with which limits what can be done with the rules/features.
I would like to see a version of firmware that does NOT support keypad programming (I think less and less pro and diy installers use it). This would probably free up a lot of memory space that could be used for new features. I would imagine that if more features were added that even those using keypad programming would migrate over to RP because they would want those features.
It sounds easier then it is. To revamp the firmware and test could take many months but it is something that might be a good investment.
I would like to see a version of firmware that does NOT support keypad programming (I think less and less pro and diy installers use it). This would probably free up a lot of memory space that could be used for new features. I would imagine that if more features were added that even those using keypad programming would migrate over to RP because they would want those features.
It sounds easier then it is. To revamp the firmware and test could take many months but it is something that might be a good investment.
Is the memory limitation caused by older underlying software/firmware/OS that can't address larger memory areas, e.g., an old 16-bit technology?
Ira
I talked to ELK awhile back about some ideas for enhancements that I'd like to see. Apparently, to get UL listing for a security system, there are some fairly strict constraints that they have to abide by. Must not run an actual OS, must be embedded hardware, etc.
Personally, I don't care about UL certification for the security portion of it. But, pro installers that are abiding by local code are going to have to, and I assume this is the bulk of ELK's business. Buuuutttt.... maybe a solution here is to come out with a system separate from the M1 where ELK doesn't care about the UL listing, and it's targeted towards the DIY crowd.
In any case, here's what I'd like to see:
- Integrated ethernet without a separate expander
- Built in web interface for both status/arming, AND programming/setup (no ElkRP required)
- If it had a web interface, I would hope they would hire a usability expert and a real web designer to make it look slick and not be frustrating to use. Programmers are not good at this.
- AJAX for real time updating of status pages without full refresh
- RESTful API for integration with other products
- Enhanced rules support (maybe use the standard existing language for ease, but have the option of using a real programming language to perform more complex functions)
- Real OS such as linux
- Plugin capability to allow 3rd parties to write feature enhancements, drivers for other products, etc
- Database or data structure that allows a user to pull ANY current variable, setting, or status in rules or through the API
I'm sure I could think of many more items for the wishlist.
But, some food for thought... A 1.2ghz Atom board or a GuruPlug is under $100. And a USB->RS-485 interface is about $11 (I just bought one to play with). Replicating the existing logic of the M1 in software would not necessarily be a monumental undertaking for ELK, and the RS-485 interface would allow the system to use all of the existing hardware (keypads, I/O boards, etc). They have built in sound. They have network. Running linux on the device would allow them to add decent text to speech, and possibly voice recognition (MisterHouse did it). FreeSwitch could be installed on it for allowing it to dial out via a SIP trunk, or allow one to dial in and get an IVR menu. An Atom board would even have enough power to be a phone switch for the whole house and people could purchase VoIP phones.
By building a basic system on an OS that replicates the existing functionality of the M1, but allowing plugins and open access to it, ELK can allow the community to expand the functionality of the system via plugins or modifications without expending a huge amount of internal resources to add all of the features that people want. Their software could be written in a compiled language and require a serial number to prevent piracy, but plugins and automation scripts could easily be written in whatever language the user felt comfortable with (I'm a big ruby fan, even though I'm a lot more proficient in Perl)
I realize that there are constraints on what can be used when trying to achieve a UL listing for security... But maybe that shouldn't be the primary focus of a new product. Obviously having that feature there would be a requirement for most DIY guys considering purchasing a system. Personally, I think the UL's requirements need to be updated, they are holding companies back from innovating, and making all of the hardware on the market use 20-30 year old technology at the core with newer tech having to be duct taped in somehow. This certainly is not a rip on Elk or HAI, or anyone else making security/HA systems. I'm just saying that they are being hobbled by the current requirements.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Signal,
Why do you need all that from the Elk? Perhaps you're mixing up a few things here...
From a hardware perspective, yes - a better ethernet interface - preferrably embedded; maybe a couple serial ports onboard for lighting like the HAI (honestly I don't care either way) - but some more advanced rules functionality, like the ability to do an OR statement; the ability to do dynamic emails; better vocabulary and/or custom vocabulary capability; maybe a way to support more than 16 analog zones (through the expanders); stuff like that which needs to be in the hardware. Those are the kinds of things I'd personally like to see in a new panel.
For what you're asking for, why can't you just use any of the 3rd party HA packages? Bring your own PC, make a simple web-page for your updates, use their real rules programming language, etc... What you're describing is basically something like Elve connected to an M1. With the full power of a PC, you can take it as far as you want - including distributing services across many PC's if needed for really complex operations. I just don't think what you're asking for is realistic for Elk... they're hardware builders, not software developers... as we've clearly seen .
Why do you need all that from the Elk? Perhaps you're mixing up a few things here...
From a hardware perspective, yes - a better ethernet interface - preferrably embedded; maybe a couple serial ports onboard for lighting like the HAI (honestly I don't care either way) - but some more advanced rules functionality, like the ability to do an OR statement; the ability to do dynamic emails; better vocabulary and/or custom vocabulary capability; maybe a way to support more than 16 analog zones (through the expanders); stuff like that which needs to be in the hardware. Those are the kinds of things I'd personally like to see in a new panel.
For what you're asking for, why can't you just use any of the 3rd party HA packages? Bring your own PC, make a simple web-page for your updates, use their real rules programming language, etc... What you're describing is basically something like Elve connected to an M1. With the full power of a PC, you can take it as far as you want - including distributing services across many PC's if needed for really complex operations. I just don't think what you're asking for is realistic for Elk... they're hardware builders, not software developers... as we've clearly seen
.Signal,
Why do you need all that from the Elk? Perhaps you're mixing up a few things here...
From a hardware perspective, yes - a better ethernet interface - preferrably embedded; maybe a couple serial ports onboard for lighting like the HAI (honestly I don't care either way) - but some more advanced rules functionality, like the ability to do an OR statement; the ability to do dynamic emails; better vocabulary and/or custom vocabulary capability; maybe a way to support more than 16 analog zones (through the expanders); stuff like that which needs to be in the hardware. Those are the kinds of things I'd personally like to see in a new panel.
For what you're asking for, why can't you just use any of the 3rd party HA packages? Bring your own PC, make a simple web-page for your updates, use their real rules programming language, etc... What you're describing is basically something like Elve connected to an M1. With the full power of a PC, you can take it as far as you want - including distributing services across many PC's if needed for really complex operations. I just don't think what you're asking for is realistic for Elk... they're hardware builders, not software developers... as we've clearly seen
True. But interfacing with the device using a serial port or using strings over ethernet with a checksum is not exactly elegant either. At a minimum, having a system with a RESTful API would make it MUCH easier to integrate 3rd party HA products with it. Having a web interface for programming would be much more convenient. The ability to support USB would be great for adding serial ports, I know ELK wants to sell serial port expanders, but at $10 a pop for the USB serial ports, it's a much better option for someone that wants to add a bunch of them.
If ELK did reimplement the functionality of the M1 in software and sold it on Atom boards, that same board could be used by 3rd parties to port existing software to it or write new stuff. I don't want to run a bunch of different machines to control my house. I want one. I ditched my zoneminder box in favor of cameras with onboard DVR's, and I've avoided installing an HA package on anything because I'm either unimpressed by the packages out there, or cannot justify the cost.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
No argument from me on better connectivity to the board... but I'd leave the hardware on their devices, and let another system handle the software... right now I have my HA app running on my WHS, but it'll likely get moved to a Fit2PC that fits inside my cabinet with a SSD hard drive and automatic updates all disabled, and a good firewall on - so that it's super small, low power, and theoretically reliable with no moving parts.
There are input and output expanders all over the place that talk to PC's - theoretically anyone who wanted to create a completely computer-based security system could pretty easily...
i'm personally of the mindset (and I believe a lot of others are as well) that I'd prefer to leave the mission-critical stuff to the hardware (base security functions) and leave my "toys" on software... I'll never have to worry about an automatic update or a virus exploit taking out my M1 or comprimising my security... Or worse, a bad DLL or bad hard drive preventing my fire alarm from going off in the middle of the night and costing the lives of anyone in my family... I'm a firm believer in purpose-built devices that are made to run forever and last.
In the mean time, if you can't get everything you want on one box, maybe you can virtualize like some people have... people are mixing all kinds of stuff on one physical PC.
There are input and output expanders all over the place that talk to PC's - theoretically anyone who wanted to create a completely computer-based security system could pretty easily...
i'm personally of the mindset (and I believe a lot of others are as well) that I'd prefer to leave the mission-critical stuff to the hardware (base security functions) and leave my "toys" on software... I'll never have to worry about an automatic update or a virus exploit taking out my M1 or comprimising my security... Or worse, a bad DLL or bad hard drive preventing my fire alarm from going off in the middle of the night and costing the lives of anyone in my family... I'm a firm believer in purpose-built devices that are made to run forever and last.
In the mean time, if you can't get everything you want on one box, maybe you can virtualize like some people have... people are mixing all kinds of stuff on one physical PC.
Quixote_1
Active Member
I'm no authority on the matter, but +1 here. After years of wasting my time figuring out and setting up a PC security system, I have been reformed.
I am now in the process of setting up a simple laptop that will run a stripped down version of windows and have very limited WAN access, while maintaining bidirectional communication with my ELK, housed in the same enclosure. While the system will enhance my ELK's ability, it will not hamper it's core functions should something go wrong with the laptop (eg. BSOD or windows "update").
While it's convenient to have one system that handles everything, I've come to realize that since a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, a chain with one link just can't be relied on (not to mention it's not even a chain at all
). From now on I'm keeping my system modular, even with the added minor inconveniences associated with that method.
Lagerhead
Active Member
Also +1. I used to wish that the M1 did more. Now I know it's "just right." There is value in the separation of functions, particularly in using the strengths of the components to their best advantage. M1+HA can be powerful, robust and dependable.
linuxha
Active Member
Hi Lagerhead! What 'more' do you want the ELK-M1 to do? I have an idea but you'll have to wait a few months (sorry, that's the current stack order).
I understand the frustration of the PC solution but a hardware/software solution is much more flexible. Also if 'it' has a cpu, it has software (firmware). I like the ELK-M1 (but I've not worked with the HAI system). I'm not going to detail my ideas here yet until I've taken a few more steps into this part of the project.
mikejrc
Active Member
i agree and the weakest link is precisely "MS windows"
thats why i dumped them years ago and dont have to worry about them at all.
but a word of advice if you have to use windows for HA...
1) run it as a virtual machine, meaning from Mac OS X or any unix flavor using virtualization like VMWare. it allows you to install windows set it up the way you want it and take a snapshot of it, if something goes wrong you already have that snapshot you can revert back like nothing ever happened, and no....its not like the windows recovery feature that never really works when you need it. it something ever happens to windows it wont bring your main OS down and thats the time saver.
2) i would run any windows server version, you could then create a user and apply very restrictive policies to that user then install your HA software under than user and log on always using that user. When you apply server policies you can do things like... prevent a user from turning off or on the system, using the cd player or any external device like usb drives, install or uninstall software, run any process as administrator, etc.
basically you sandbox your user to run only your HA software nothing else is allowed, to do any changes you simply disconnect your power reboot it and log on as the administrator do your changes and log back on as your HA user instead.
the last time i ran windows on my personal computer i used a server version and i noticed how it was a lot more stronger when it came down to viruses and spyware etc, i never ran any security software but when i scanned for all that junk i was usually clean for the most part compared to a typical user running a regular windows xp home for example
thats why i dumped them years ago and dont have to worry about them at all.
but a word of advice if you have to use windows for HA...
1) run it as a virtual machine, meaning from Mac OS X or any unix flavor using virtualization like VMWare. it allows you to install windows set it up the way you want it and take a snapshot of it, if something goes wrong you already have that snapshot you can revert back like nothing ever happened, and no....its not like the windows recovery feature that never really works when you need it. it something ever happens to windows it wont bring your main OS down and thats the time saver.
2) i would run any windows server version, you could then create a user and apply very restrictive policies to that user then install your HA software under than user and log on always using that user. When you apply server policies you can do things like... prevent a user from turning off or on the system, using the cd player or any external device like usb drives, install or uninstall software, run any process as administrator, etc.
basically you sandbox your user to run only your HA software nothing else is allowed, to do any changes you simply disconnect your power reboot it and log on as the administrator do your changes and log back on as your HA user instead.
the last time i ran windows on my personal computer i used a server version and i noticed how it was a lot more stronger when it came down to viruses and spyware etc, i never ran any security software but when i scanned for all that junk i was usually clean for the most part compared to a typical user running a regular windows xp home for example
happy_again
Member
Now isn't that quite the tease for this message thread..!!!!
