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How to use Elk Relays as speaker switches?


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#61 Galun

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 06:32 PM

Great, thanks.

Right now I have M1-XOVR and M1RB for 16 additional relays, and I have used up all of them. I use two relays to control the speakers for one room - one left channel and one right channel. I am thinking about getting the Elk-WSV water shutoff valve, so I need another relay. That's why I am looking for ways to use dpdt to free up relays on my M1-XOVR and M1RB.

Lou Apo, let me see if I understand this correctly.
1) Elk M1G main board 12VDC (+VAUX on the main board) => M1RB COM.
2) M1RB NO => splice two wires => 2x Elk 924 T+ (Trigger +)
3) Elk M1G main board 12VDC (+VAUX on the main board) => splice two wires => 2x Elk 924 POS
4) Elk 924 NEG => splice together two wires => one wire to Elk M1G main board NEG.

So basically when I turn on the relay, I switch on a 12VDC trigger. Correct?

Or, I guess I can use output 7 - 16 on J16 to switch the dpdt. The +12V, NEG, and triggers are all there.

The other thing I am thinking about is adding the total load from the sources. I read in the manual Appendix F that the total current draw on +SAUX, +VAUX, +VKP, and connector J16 should not exceed 1 amp. So should I add up all the load from these sources to make sure it stays below 1A? If I power the Elk-WSV from the panel to take advantage of the battery, it draws 500mA nominal already. If I add everything else up I may have exceeded 1A. What can I do?

Thanks!

Edited by Galun, 11 April 2011 - 06:36 PM.


#62 Lou Apo

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 06:47 PM

Use one of the output to switch the 924's. I didn't know you had available outputs. This is much simpler and frees up all 4 of the relays.

And yes, you need to add it all up and stay under rating. If you exceed the rating, you need to use an aux power source for enough stuff to stay in spec.

Edited by Lou Apo, 11 April 2011 - 06:49 PM.


#63 Work2Play

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:04 PM

one other note on measuring load - keep in mind that at full alarm, your system pulls even more current - for the sirens and loud voice announcements - and communication method. To properly test you need to measure the system with the relays open and the system alarming - otherwise you could find that in a real alarm scenario it overloads and resets rather than serving its purpose.

#64 Lou Apo

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 07:29 AM

Well at least you don't have to worry about the voice drawing any current!!

#65 Galun

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:32 AM

Thanks. A few more questions.

1) If I don't want to use outputs 7 - 16 and use m1RB relays to switch elk 924 dpdt, was my wiring in the post above correct?

2) Load - thanks for the clarification Work2Play, got me thinking... In full alarm mode, where does the "noise" from the keypads come from? I have two KP2 keypads, and they draw 65mA. Speakers are now routed through a separate amp instead of directly from output 1. So let's say I have a power outage and the full alarm is triggered. The amp is not going to be powered, and I will have no noise from the speakers, so no spoken words on zones. But will I still have noise from the keypads, like the beeps and chimes? Anyways, this got me thinking, perhaps I should add the Elk-800 afterall, and add the 800mA full load into my calculations. Then I will have a battery powered amp for the speakers in case of power failure.

3) So, now I think I need to add the P212S to the system. Elk-800 at 800mA and Elk-WSV at 500mA on their own warrants a P212S. I read the manual and I am a bit confused on how it adds power to the system. My understanding is that the P212S powers anything directly connected to it, plus anything on the M1 databus after it's location. So if I plus the P212S into, say, plug 3 on the M1 data hub, it should power all the boards after plug 3?

4) How do I translate the battery size to the expected amount of time that my system can be battery powered? Say 12Ah battery, 1300mA total load from Elk-800 and Elk-WSV... 12000 / 1300 = a little more than 9 hours?

5) When this is all hooked up, is there a way to simulate a AC down situation battery power only test? Unplug the 16.5V transformer and trigger alarm?

Thanks!

Edited by Galun, 12 April 2011 - 10:35 AM.


#66 Lou Apo

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:28 PM

Galun,

Your wirign description is a little off. You need to eliminate step 3 (step 3 would keep the 924's in the closed positions all the time). You will move your speaker wires over from the Elk M1RB to the 924's using the same NO/C/NC hookups as you had on the m1rb.

If you have a power failure and an alarm, your siren and keypads will still be powered via the built in Elk battery. Your voice stuff will be lost since the separate amp that powers it will be lost.

If you want the whole system to work in a power failure I would suggest getting a UPS unit (like those typically used for computers) and plug your amplifier and wsv power source into it (and any other items that you can power separate from the main Elk board).

#67 Galun

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:24 PM

Galun,

Your wirign description is a little off. You need to eliminate step 3 (step 3 would keep the 924's in the closed positions all the time). You will move your speaker wires over from the Elk M1RB to the 924's using the same NO/C/NC hookups as you had on the m1rb.

If you have a power failure and an alarm, your siren and keypads will still be powered via the built in Elk battery. Your voice stuff will be lost since the separate amp that powers it will be lost.

If you want the whole system to work in a power failure I would suggest getting a UPS unit (like those typically used for computers) and plug your amplifier and wsv power source into it (and any other items that you can power separate from the main Elk board).


So only two wires into the Elk 924? The NO from M1RB going to T+ on Elk 924, and NEG on Elk 924 to NEG on Elk M1G main board?

I do have a UPS in the wiring closet... ok let me think about some ways to shuffle stuff around.

#68 Lou Apo

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:30 PM

I think you have it.

When using the UPS you need to decide how long you want it to work for and make sure your total load won't draw it down prematurely. For example, if you are running a computer off of it you might have the UPS send the computer into hibernate after a couple minutes of power failure.

#69 Galun

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

I think you have it.

When using the UPS you need to decide how long you want it to work for and make sure your total load won't draw it down prematurely. For example, if you are running a computer off of it you might have the UPS send the computer into hibernate after a couple minutes of power failure.


Yup absolutely on the UPS. I have a unit that says how minutes it has left on the battery based on current load, and the server is set to shut down after power failure.

Now that I think about it, Getting PS212S + Transformer + battery costs almost as much as a 1500VA UPS. I'd rather have that flexibility instead of an Elk setup to power the WSV and amp, as long as the load on my main board can power all the other elk components - which it can.

#70 Work2Play

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

UPS's are generally rated in minutes, where the Elk power supplies are generally rated in hours... is that an apples-to-apples comparison?

#71 Lou Apo

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:35 PM

UPS's are assumed to be powering computers consuming as much as 200 watts so they put the display up in minutes. If it is only powering 10 or 20 watts it would last all day. If you tell the UPS to signal your computer into hibernate after 2 minutes you would be left with plenty of juice to run the little stuff a long time.

The big question is your amp for the speakers. I heard you say you were using a Denon. That could be eating some watts. You might consider a tiny little cheapo amp since I think it is safe to say, the Elk voice is not exactly hifi!

#72 Galun

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 11:06 PM

UPS's are assumed to be powering computers consuming as much as 200 watts so they put the display up in minutes. If it is only powering 10 or 20 watts it would last all day. If you tell the UPS to signal your computer into hibernate after 2 minutes you would be left with plenty of juice to run the little stuff a long time.

The big question is your amp for the speakers. I heard you say you were using a Denon. That could be eating some watts. You might consider a tiny little cheapo amp since I think it is safe to say, the Elk voice is not exactly hifi!


Yup, the Denon takes up 60W. Plugged it into a killawatt to test.

Currently I have the Denon amp plugged into an insteon appliance linc to turn it on/off. I also wrote a task (let's call it "PA") to turn on the amp and all 16 relays (2 pairs for source switching, 6 pairs for the room speakers) for 20 seconds. Then I have rules like WHENEVER water alarm 1 BECOMES UNSECURE, THEN ACTIVATE PA, THEN ANNOUNCE blah blah blah. This works fine.

But, yeah, I am probably going to get the Elk-800. Maximum load of 800mA x 12VDC = 9.6W. With the 1500VA UPS from APC it should last 5 hours.




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