Controlling lights in separate building

I know...I should be doing searches, but I know it will turn up thousands of posts.

I want to be able to control the lights in my shop from my home (about 150' away).

Existing equipment...Elk M1G with M1XEP in my home, CQC on a PC in my home, a HA can with an Elk datahub in my shop, and a LAN switch in my shop (same LAN as my home). I don't have any available wires between home and shop, and don't want to pull any. The shop walls are "open" (stud walls with no drywall on them), so I can pull lots of wires in the shop if necessary. Shop and home are on same utility power. Shop has a load center to supply it, and power for the home "goes thru" that load center.

The shop has eight flourescent fixtures (4', two bulbs each), all controlled by a pair of three-way switches. I want to keep the functionality of the three-way switches, and also be able to turn the lites on/off from my home, either from an Elk keypad or from my CQC PC. The real goal is have a PTZ IP camera inside my shop, and be able to use it at night from my home by turning on the shop lights from my home first.

I don't have any other lighting controls in my setup, and don't really expect to add much more in the future.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Ira

Hi Ira,

a couple things - Do you already have any IP connectivity in your shop? If not, a few of us have been playing with these: http://www.cyberguys.com/product-details/?productid=48019&core_cross=SEARCH#page=page-1 depending on your setup you can use one as just a client bridge to connect to your house wireless - or you can use two to cover both ends - and basically get close to 300Mb bridged out to your shop. They're handy little devices. That would cover IP for your camera.

UPB is supposed to be able to work even through sub panels - Simply Automated just suggests putting a phase coupler in each panel. That would let you still have the 3-way switches out there and ideally have the ability to access it from indoors. In the house you could swap a normal switch for one of their 240 scene switches and have a rocker and some extra pushbuttons all on the same switch to control it. You'd have to add a PIM for either the M1 or CqC to talk to the switches. You're talking a couple hundred bucks but it's totally reasonable and doable.

I don't think you want to rely on wireless technology to reach a remote building. I suspect range would be an issue.

Disclaimer: I am not endorsing any specific brand of product here...

Now that that is out of the way...I have an sub panel in a garage about 50 feet from the house with an insteon device in it. I also have a shed that is wired from the garage sub panel with about another 50 feet of cable. Both devices work fine at those distances.

YMMV

Other powerline device manufacturers may also work fine.

I see a couple options.

1) Get an m1rb and run the load to your lights directly through that (assuming your lights don't exceed the rating which I believe is like 10 amps at 120v but you should look it up first). Problem is, you will no longer be able to use your three way switches. Good news is that it will cost you only the m1rb at about $50 and you will immediately get control from your Elk. I believe you can plug the m1rb into the dbh which you said you had in the shop already, so no new wires from house to shop needed.

2) UPB or Insteon. Insteon cost about $100 for two switches and UPB maybe $50 more. However, to get the Elk to control you will also need an Elk xsp unit and a power line modem which may cost like another $150 or maybe more. I am pretty sure you can hook the xsp up right off the dbh also so you shouldn't have any problems with signal strength being that the plm will be right there. If you hook the xsp and plm in in your house, the signal may have trouble getting there. But if you don't have any automatic lights in the house, no need to put the xsp/plm in the house.

I had considered using relays, but as mentioned, it kinda makes things difficult for the 3-way switches. So, I'm leaning towards UPB using the Elk M1PCSPIM. I will probably try locating the PIM in my home first, to see if it will work over the distance to the shop. I might as well admit that even though I'm only considering UPB for this one project right now, once I get it going, I will want to do more, and most of that would likely be in my home.

Looks like I have a lot of reading to do about UPB.

I do have one more question...if using a PIM and an M1XSP instead of the M1PCSPIM...is only one PIM/XSP allowed to be connected to the M1G? In other words, if I want to use UPB in my shop and my home, but distance and/or multiple load centers result in a lack of reliability, can one PIM/XSP be located in my home and another in my shop, both connected to the same M1G?

Thanks,
Ira

I can't answer your last question - I think it'd be best to avoid that if possible though because you don't want multiple transmissions trying to fire at the same time - unless they just flat out don't talk on each others' networks. That said, I can tell you that if you work with Simply Automated, they have unbelievable tech support and they'll help you work through anything.

As far as reading about UPB, the link in my signature is a good start.

With Insteon I know you could filter out the signal by putting both the plm and light switches on the same circuit and then filtering that circuit between the devices and the breaker box. This would isolate your signal from getting into any other circuits in the hosue. I assume upb has similar filter ability.

I have question about if Elk will simultaneously output your lighting commands to two xsp units however. I don't know, but I bet something goes screwy with that.

You could also look at using Insteon RF. They claim 150ft of transmission so if you have clean line of sight you might get a signal (but I bet not), certainly if you could put an RF device in the middle it would be two 75 ft hops which is well in range.

I suspect, however, that your power line signals will make the distance if you situate your devices optimally and don't have any signal suckers on the same circuits.

Just a note on UPB and distance... UPB often does just fine traversing the two phases without requiring a phase coupler. When doing this, the UPB signal is actually traveling all the way back to the transformer in the street then looping back on the other phase. Most people are just fine with that. When we want to boost our signal, that's when we add a phase coupler. I'd be perfectly willing to bet that it'll be fine passing through the shop especially if you add a phase coupler back at the shop panel.

If you want to test it out and see, there's a little known secret that'll get you a great start should you choose UPB - specifically Simply Automated. Call up Automated Outlet and place an order for the DKIT01 - but make sure you talk to someone - because they'll do the advanced kit.

This comes with 2x US1140 switches - these are your normal everyday light replacement switches; it comes with one US240 which has the configurable faceplates you can make into just about anything; and when you call, they'll include the CIM/PIM - computer interface module (and you can specify USB or Serial - I recommend Serial and get your own separate usb-to-serial adapter if necessary); and you get a phase coupler - your choice of wire-in, breaker-panel mount, or dryer/range plug in (panel mount is best/easiest if you have room for 2 breakers and a compatible load center). All for about $180... it's a great deal. The only thing to add is a remote auxillary switch for the 3-way switches (USR40A) - they're the slave switches to keep 3-way operation.

I have an outlet in the yard that is more than 50 feet from the house and had been using a 100 foot extension cord to do some yard work. So, I took an appliance link out there with me and plugged it in. It was at least 150 from the panel and it worked flawlessly.

I think that you would be just fine to simply not worry about the fact that your separate building is separate. I think UPB or Insteon will make the distance via power line transmission. Keep in mind that UPB devices don't rebroadcast so you might need to keep your controller electrically near where the wires head out to the other building if using that technology.

Lou Apo said:

I think that you would be just fine to simply not worry about the fact that your separate building is separate. I think UPB or Insteon will make the distance via power line transmission.

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I agree... pick whichever one appeals most to you - follow your gut - they'll all be doable (except X10) - i honestly think. If not, sell it on the CT classifieds and you won't be out much $$$.