Market Research for a New Product

B3D

New Member
Hey All,

We're frustrated the current HA systems can't play nice with each other. We're looking at whether there is a need by Professional Integrators and your customers for a single gateway device for the home. This device would be able to talk with wifi, x10, ZigBee, Z-Wave, etc, and communicate with existing home automation infrastructures / systems, but do it with a much better and much more integrated UI.

Q - Is there any know gateways / technologies that exist that can do this
Q - Is there a need and if so, what would be the channel for selling this product? Would you add it to your arsenal of technologies?

Thanks for your help and insight,

Mike S.
 
I'm with a tech start-up and we have yet to launch publicly. We are doing preliminary R&D for a few HA based products were looking to build. We have deep software and embedded hardware talent with some C4 knowledge of HA (but not a ton).

The only product we've found that is close to what we're thinking of building is Universal Devices ISY994i, supporting ZigBee as well as Insteon, IR. But we're thinking much broader support for a 'God Box' type gateway that could allow many more protocols to talk with each other and interop. We would also develop an HA smartdevice app to aggregate and control all the networked devices (and open source the code for other developers to easily extend and create functionality).

So as with any start-up, we're trying to validate and gage the market demand for such a product idea and technology. Any thoughts, feedback, and insight would be great.

Thanks much,

Mike
 
At least I am interested as a beginner. Nowadays, it is still not very straightforward to put everything together. You eventually need a PC to control everything, which I think is a overkill. I feel a dedicated PC-like, low power, highly reliable controller would be desirable.

In addition, I think the price tag will be important too, say hardware + software + mobile apps. Do you have any idea about the price range?

Shawn
 
Not a pro....but...

Sounds like you are talking about a hardware version of Elve, HS or CQC. Or more likely, a hardware set running your own HS or CQC software equivalent. With the amount of systems to integrate you would be doing the same thing they have been both been doing for years, drivers, drivers, drivers with the occasional functionality increase. No idea at what price point vs capabilities you would be having to compete at.

Just my 0.02.
 
There is always an interest in a hardware controller which doens't require Windows, but is as flexible as Homeseer/CQC/Elve. But keep in mind that these folks have spent a lot of R&D developing their products (and supporting 3rd party hardware), so it might be a battle you don't want to take on, unless you are extremely serious and have the time/resources to tackle this project ;)

Would love to know what exactly you have in mind, and if you are planning on targeting just the professionals, or also the DIYers.
 
I'd rather have a box that I can spit straight 232 or 485 into from my already existing control platforms and then integrate more seamlessly with the other hardware without having to translate via X and Y gateways or boxes, then connect to manufacturer ASDF and QWERT's product gateway to interface with their product. I don't need another PC or GUI being driven from my controllers or vice versa, I don't need to reinvent the wheel and install another PC or embedded platform to drive the robust hardware that is already typically present in a HA project we're working on....just creates another piece of equipment to maintain, upgrade, and another failure point (to me at least).
 
I agree completely with DELInstallations, give me a 'Rosetta Stone' style black box that I can connect lighting, audio, video, HVAC, whatever to and then communicate to all of them with a single extensive command set. I don't want a GUI, timers, conditions, any of that - just a simple translator that can talk to anything. To the rs232 and 485 that DELInstallations mentioned - I'd add ethernet/tcp. Keep the command structure the same across serial and ethernet so integrators/DIYers only have to write once.


Terry
 
There may not be any products on the market that do it all, but there are plenty that are attempting/have attempted it (ISY, Vera, Control4, Elk, HAI). First of all I suspect there are issues trying to put a zigbee and zwave radio in the same box since they use the same frequencies. But the crux in all of it is in trying to support all the proprietary protocols of all the different devices available with all their quirks, bugs, and idiosyncrasies. You need to interface and test with each one, and keep up with their upgrades, which means you need a big lab and a lot of developers (or a large development community supporting you). That is where the time and costs lie. It's easy to come up with the hardware, the hardware is out there.

If only we could get all of the developers for all these platforms working together and stop reinventing the wheel we might be able to finally move forward.
 
A Rosetta Stone type project would be very welcome for sure. Some devices work this way already, such as the Elk M1, which lets you control all your lights (no matter what lighting technology the M1 is configured with) via the same command set (simple ASCII protocol).

Make it IP enabled, and any device (from wireless routers to smartphones) could interact with any home automation system, as long as this 'rosetta stone' supports it. Leave the 'smarts' up to other devices/software packages.
 
I guess I don't see the point to the all in one device. So what if I can use the same protocol from my HA system for each device technology, I still need a HA system controller or PC with software to handle the logic and end user GUI right!?!

In reality, I need a PC to stream content throughout my home anyway and want a touch screen interface that I can easily modify, so why not use free home automation software that works with each technology already, but runs on my PC?

Also, PC's are reliable. Most folks may not know it, but many critical control systems in several industries use XP! Of course, such systems have fail safe designs so as not to cause an adverse condition if the PC fails, but I'm just sayin' if a PC is good enough for multi billion dollar industries why can't XP embedded work for me in my $200,000 home?!? Further, since most PC based systems are made up of smaller sub systems (security, HVAC, lighting etc...) everything still functions if the PC fails.

All any PC software has to do is use a generic and robust scripting language and have all home specific code separated from the device specific protocol that handles the actual commands and it has duplicated the function of black box in a much more versatile way. This was already done with Premise many years ago and it still works very well. If it takes that many more hours or days to set up a home over hard coding protocol commands, I'd seriously question the PC software you are trying to use because it makes much more sense to let a PC manage the device specific protocol and give an integrator a higher level generic scripting language to manipulate the device. I know Premise cost millions to develop and that Motorola now gives it away for free, but the designers were top notch programmers from Microsoft, so the program is 100% stable under a windows environment (and mature for that matter as they spent many many years perfecting it before Motorola gave them the pink slip).

An example on versatility:
I can change every light in my home from z-wave to any other lighting technology and retain all of my room specific logic (e.g. occupancy timeouts, light dims when I hit play etc...). I can do this in under half an hour (plus the hardware change out time). If you've hard coded protocol commands into a Creston or AMX system, not only would it take way more set up than half an hour, it would be much more error prone. Yes, I know this new black box could do this too, but it costs money and is not needed since PC's are becoming very cheap and most already have a PC in their home.

Another example of versatility:
If I wanted to install a system for someone, I can create generic templates using Premise. The templates give a starting point on basic logic, rooms and home devices. They can even include logic to brighten a room when a PVR is paused, occupancy time outs etc... Next, since all device specific code is separate from any customer specific scripts, I can easily import any device modules I've made for previous device types or download one's others have made. Next all is needed is to "bind" the device object to a home objects. Since home objects (lights, door locks, tvs, etc...) are separate from device objects (z-wave dimmers, X10 sensors, Elk M1g, etc...) all home specific logic can be retained if the device object is deleted and replaced with one of a different type! Yes this new black box could do this too, but again what I'm talking about is free assuming a user already has a PC.

My last example of versatility, what if a new device protocol comes along and the black box doesn't get an update?:
If a new device comes along it may never be supported by the black box, but I know for sure I can code a new device driver for Premise very easily! Good examples of this are the Elk M1g, VRC0P (Z-Wave), and W800RF32. All these drivers were created after Premise was no longer supported and were even created in vbscript (an easy to use object oriented language)! Best of all the drivers are free as most users publish their work, so others do not have to recreate the wheel. I'm not saying versatility ins't possible with a black box, I'm just saying that if it's not, I'm never going to buy one!

One could create some of this in the form of a black box, but without a robust object oriented scripting language, I seriously doubt it would be user friendly to ever add new devices. The problem is making a system that does this takes years, lots of talent and money. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm all for start-ups, but I figured I'd throw out my thoughts since you asked for our opinions. Personally, I'd run from trying to penetrate an overly saturated home automation market with a small user base, but that is your choice.
 
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