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A couple sensor questions (water/occupancy)


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#1 N49atv

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:12 AM

I'm looking at wiring for occupancy sensors in the new house. Wasn't planning on using them, but 4 wire is cheap. I was already going to have motions in a few places for security. Should I just put occupancy sensors where I need motions, and use them as my motion when house is armed in away mode? I don't have pets, nor do I plan to have any (well inside pets anyway). Are they too sensitive? I'm sure I could code in a D bounce for alarm, to help with false alarms. What are good brands for either?

Second is water sensors. I was looking at some shut off valves, I'd like to wire for them at ever water location. Again, not sure I'll use them. My question is do I have to have some of the all in one solutions? Can I just get flood sensors? Can they be extended, I'd assume they work on a resistance system, and thus shorting across when water is on them, though not sure. Can anyone shed light. I'd rather have them as an input, drive outputs, or dry contacts, and pull separate wire for the solenoids. Or locate them at my header (though at fixture is better for leaks. Also what brand are recommended for valves/sensors?

Thanks

#2 wuench

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:21 AM

I would not use occupancy in place of motion detectors for security. If anything I would use security motions for occupancy. The two are geared for different things, occupancy sensors are more sensitive and are tuned for a fast response time, motion detectors have features (like multiple pulse/beams required to trip, etc) and are tuned to prevent false alarms. Slow response is probably preferred over false alarms. I have two motions I use for occupancy and security, and there is a noticeable 1sec or so delay between the time they detect me and trigger my insteon lights to come on. Typical human response time is 200ms so it is pretty noticeable.

Slow ramp rates can be used to mask this and if you are using ELK wiring to the main control zones and using fast loop response may help.

Edited by wuench, 20 July 2012 - 11:22 AM.


#3 N49atv

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:01 PM

Yeah I thought maybe the quicker response of occupancy would be good, as it will work well for lighting, and if program properly (if possible) with a d-bounce (delay in logic, where an input must go false for a set time before alarming) when in armed mode. Just wasn't sure what is better.

#4 wuench

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 04:15 PM

Well if you are writing your own rules/apps to run it all then you can probably program you way around the issues. Another option would be some cross-zone pool logic for security where more than one sensor must go off within a certain period.

As far as water sensors I am curious about those as well, hopefully someone will chime in, the flood sensors seem to be all that is available and they are usually 4 wire. I was hoping for a "plate" type solution too, it seems like a certain height of water would be required to activate the flood sensors so they would have to be carefully placed. I really need to get one on my HVAC as I had a clog in my condensation hose last year and it flooded part of my basement and the A/C is running all the time these days....

Edited by wuench, 20 July 2012 - 04:17 PM.


#5 video321

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:02 PM

I'm using GRI 4-wire water sensors instead of the 2-wire version because they self-monitor. GRI also makes ones that use leads (the same concept as a plate, but with probes) which should work well for you, Wuench. They wire directly across a zone.

Edited by video321, 20 July 2012 - 05:04 PM.


#6 N49atv

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

Yeah is like to pull wire for under every sink, toilet, washer, and in mech room. And kill water valves.

#7 DELInstallations

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 06:34 PM

They also make "snakes" to monitor an area specifically for water. GRI just started selling one, I want to say it's called something like a water mocassin. Almost all the floods I know of are 2 wire, with an exception being the head end which uses 4 to provide a relay to "extend" the fault so a panel can easily pick it up instead of a quick momentary.

#8 Neurorad

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:21 PM

Elk sells a nice whole house valve, for the water main.

#9 N49atv

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:29 PM

Yeah, I was planning to wire for a main, and also wire for every sink. I dont know ill use all of it, but im pulling a lot of wire in the new house. I did a spreadsheat up with array forumlas, to calculate approx wire ill need based on distances from HA panel, to anywhere in a room, each room with a seperate distance, and it multiplies by the drops. So far, without water sensors/valves, im over 8000' of station wire (2c20), over 6000' of cat5/6. So lots.

#10 Work2Play

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:02 AM

You only need a single shutoff - doing them at each location would be cost prohibitive and overkill. There are plenty of 2-wire sensors - including the "leaf" and others... wire for them under toilets, under the fridge, washer, etc...

#11 wuench

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

I see the GRI snakes, those are more like probes than the plate sensor I was thinking of. But I guess the would cover an area since the conductors are separated. It looks like the Open Loop GRI's are 2 wire and the Closed Loop are 4 wire, the closed loop will detect a failed sensor.

I don't see anything that is a plate type sensor that can be connected to a panel directly, I ordered a couple of GRI 2600 Closed Loop to play with but I would still prefer a plate type 12v sensor for certain places, if you guys find a link to something like that please post.

Edited by wuench, 25 July 2012 - 05:05 PM.





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