Did you know that you can enjoy many members-only features simply by quickly registering (no CAPTCHA!)?
Registering gives you access to our giveaways, forum features, increased search performance, access to our Download Library, create your own blog & gallery, and more!
Once you have registered, stop by in 'Hello World', and introduce yourself.
OmniPro 2 installation question
Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:06 AM
Sorry for such a vague and uninformed question, but I'm having some problems with our OmniPro 2 installation. Specifically, our automation installer is based out of state and thus isn't licensed to do security here. We specifically hired a security firm to do the wiring but unfortunately I didn't realize they know very little about HAI's OmniPro 2. So now, even though all the security zones are hooked up and programmed, about 20% of the zones show up as "Not Ready". We have a total of 4 expansion enclosure (total of 95-100 zones) and the "Not Ready" signals are sort of all over the place - some in pretty much every enclosure. Interestingly, all of the "Not Ready" zones are contact sensors (windows and doors). The other contact sensors, along with all of the motions, glass breaks, smoke & CO monitors, etc, all show up as "Secured". I took a peak at the enclosures and I didn't notice anything unique about the wiring of the "Not Readys" (in other words, nothing obvious like loose connections, etc).
Before I go back to my security firm to complain, I worry that they don't know how to fix it themselves. I thought about hiring another security firm, but would prefer to avoid that extra expense if there might be an easy fix.
I know I haven't given a lot of information (not sure what to give; happy to give them upon request), but can anyone here help me brainstorm on what could be causing the issues? What typically causes "Not Ready"? Before we hooked everything up I had the security firm check all the wires to make sure they were still working (i.e. the contractor didn't put nails into them), so that shouldn't be the issue.
Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:35 AM
First, test the connection as that will tell you if its the contact/wiring or the panel. Take the leads OFF the hai and test as a stand alone.
Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:27 AM
Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:01 PM
Any company that does wiring should be able to do basic troubleshooting, no matter what the panel is. Wiring is wiring and a panel is a panel, the only difference is how it's programmed. The only item that is unique is if the unit sends data to other system boards or it changes format (RS485, 422, 232, etc.) In this case, I'd guess that the EOLR's were installed in the powered devices and not on all of the contact loops. I wouldn't be surprised if the zones in question had multiple contacts installed.
I'm sure many here won't agree and I'm likely to get flamed for my blunt views and statements below.
As a professional installer and large scale integrator that is typically involved in the "parts and smarts" side of the business, my view is this: before complaining to/about the cabling/installing company about potential wiring issues, confirmation regarding the wiring's completeness or inadequacies would be needed; It's typically the integrator's responsibility to prove it's not their programming or equipment faults, and the problem is factually the wiring and not a system component or programming fault. To speak frankly, coming from the other side of the fence, doing large scale integrations with multiple vendors, equipment, and various levels of functionality, if the contract/agreement didn't specify EOLR installation or simply a parts/cable install, the EOLR installation would be viewed (IMHO) as not being addressed within the specifications provided, and in actuality, could be billed as an extra. What is or is not covered and how it's supposed to be installed (even if they do not know the equipment) would be contained in a scope of work. If it stated EOLR and circuit integrity, it's their responsibility to fix the wiring/devices. If a wiring fault is caused by another contractor (cable damaged, cut, contact and/or magnet removed for whatever reason) then it would typically be their responsibility to fix and then backcharge you or the other contractor for the repair.
As an example, one of the standard clauses we have in our contracts for other vendors connecting devices to our security and fire systems, as we have a lot of phased installs, new and existing is wiring shall be clear of faults, grounds, opens, shorts and proven to be such before connection to any equipment. If EOLR's are necessary for proper supervision, they will be provided by us and installed appropriately at the end of line on the common side (NC) or across the pair (NO supervised) circuit. We even go so far as to ask for a loss report (fiber) or for certifications (Category cabling).
*summary statement* "If the system was clear (ready or no troubles) before connection and they exist afterwards, the responsibility to fix/troubleshoot is with the contractor that installed the wiring and devices with the problem loops, devices, etc being removed from the system until the faults no longer exist".
Time would need to be spent with a meter by someone to see if the zone sets up (closed or EOLR value) then move from there. It's basic circuit troubleshooting 101. Programming would not be suspect until the loops were verified as NC or EOLR, then the panel's programming would need to match. Zone types have nothing to do with this at this point (unless the specific type requires a NO supervised circuit to act appropriately, like CO or Fire).
In this case, I would investigate the scope of the wiring contract to see what it truly addresses and specifies, and if that contractor wishes to come to prove their wiring works or meter it, I would classify that as a good faith move, but if it works and the only problem is an EOLR, either not installed or not covered within the scope of work, then they might consider it a billable call, as the wiring and/or contacts (components) are not at fault.
Edited by DELInstallations, 18 August 2012 - 06:45 PM.
Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:11 PM
I put in an Omni Pro II at the neighbors house in FL replacing an already installed by a "professional" security company alarm. Its interesting the way the 120VAC was wired with a flex cable and taping the ends of the wires to the transformer (with the electric just poking out of a hole in the ceiling to the alarm box). That kind of freaked me out a bit. I have seen worst though in commercial environments.
Did you pay them already?
Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:34 PM
I dunno - I agree completely. I always make sure I'm covered... if I am hired to finish the install that someone else started (or a retrofit of an alarm in unknown condition) I price it to include me validating all the wiring/zones, with a clause that they're expected to be working and if they're not, there'll be an additional charge to get them working. If it's just fixing a loose wire, no big deal - but if I have to run new wire or replace a lot of parts, I am covered to be able to bill for that.
I'm sure many here won't agree and I'm likely to get flamed for my views and statements below.
Of course, less professional installers will just do the bare minimum and are happy to point fingers back and forth leaving the homeowner in the middle to prove who's to blame - but that's not good business, and in the end it's likely to cost the vendors more money anyways in additional truck rolls.
All that said, if you're comfortable, you should validate the zones. If they're well labeled, it goes quick as a 2-person job... you sit at the wires with an ohm meter, and have the wife or a friend go around and open/close zones while you watch what happens. Based on that you should know exactly what the problem is (or we can help). What you're looking for is during open and close, what's the reading? Infinite open, Dead short, or a fairly fixed resistance - in both states. Come back with the readings and we'll tell you what's next.
Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:02 PM
So far what I know is:
1. The security company was paid to do all the prewiring and connecting them to the HAI panels. Between the prewiring and the completion work, there was a 7-month lag, so near the completion time, I paid for them to come back and verify that all the wires were still working (to make sure that they don't blame my contractor for putting nails in them if they didn't work).
2. The custom installer programmed the HAI panel and connected the data (vis RS232) to a Savant integration system. The installer actually wasn't even supposed to program the HAI (since they are not licensed to do so in my state), but had to do it anyway because the security company doesn't know HAI.
My fear is that both sides would blame each other, and that I would end up with a new bill and a third party to get this thing fixed.
But with all the suggestions here, I'll try to digest what's been said & figure out what to do next. I'll for sure keep people posted here regardless of what happens.
Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:11 PM
What needs to be done is ask the wiring guys what they did, otherwise this is all assumption.
2. Licensing is not generally necessary for programming any panel or hardware within most state statutes I know of. It's no different than asking an IT guy to come in to set a switch, WAP or similar up. It's a technology, not hardware or cabling , so unless they touched the hardware or cabling, programming is not installing hardware or cabling, no violations of licensing could be seen. Ask your programmer if the zone definitions are NC, NO or EOLR. They programmed it, so they should be able to tell you what the panel is supposed to be seeing at the zone (EOLR or no EOLR). If there's a programming error or configuration (even hardware) then they have to take it on the chin and address it.
Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:31 AM
Be glad it's not CA... as I read their code, that counts as an activity which requires a license...
2. Licensing is not generally necessary for programming any panel or hardware within most state statutes I know of. It's no different than asking an IT guy to come in to set a switch, WAP or similar up. It's a technology, not hardware or cabling , so unless they touched the hardware or cabling, programming is not installing hardware or cabling, no violations of licensing could be seen.
And what's worse, the only way to get said license is by having just over 2-years worth of verifiable hours working for another alarm company.
A license is required for installation and monitoring a security system. An "alarm company operator" is defined as any person who, for any consideration whatsoever, engages in business or accepts employment to install, maintain, alter, sell on premises, monitor or service alarm systems or who responds to alarm systems except for any alarm agent.
Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:41 PM
I've had to cross this particular bridge in 6 surrounding states with multiple state agencies, licensing and similar. Actually in 2 of them, it was the state agency that brought it forward because of the Davis-Bacon act.
I would argue to the end that the quoted passage for which part is met or not met by someone performing a technology or programming a panel. They are not engaged in the installation (hardware), maintenance (on site only, firmware and software do not meet this legal definition), sales on premises, alteration (physical tangible work) monitoring (would be operation of a CS, however their CS would need to be licensed for the state or indemnified), or service (again, tangible physical work on a site) and no guard or runner service.
I may not like it completely, as licensing (with appropriate trade testing/certifications) do help weed out the trunkslammers, in this case, barring someone grossly incompetent for programming a panel, it still does not meet the definitions that were quoted. Testing or inspecting the panel, yes, but programming and/or configuring firmware/software, no. It's like saying a cabling tech's license is needed to configure Windows on a desktop or configure a network switch. May not have the life safety equality, but the comparison is valid.
Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:48 PM
Are the zones for contact sensors wired with resistors? HAI does not allow mix-and-match, it is either with resistors or without for all zones, and the appropriate setting has to be configured accordingly.
Hi, your response is not totally true. If you set the main omni controller to be WITOUT EOLR, it will only be true on the main board and two onboard expensions. If you install expension enclosures (like I understand it is in this post), you will be required to install EOLR on expension enclosures regardless of the choice you pick on the main controller.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users