About to finish pre-wiring and need to wire for motorized blinds/shades. Which wire should I use?

Hi all,
 
I'm nearly done w/ my electrical pre-wiring and about to get into spray foam and sheetrock.  Right now I'm trying to figure out how I should pre-wire the windows for motorized shades, and I'd love some advice.
 
I don't have motors or controllers picked out yet.  I have a ton of windows to wire (big house, lots of windows), but I want to keep costs down as much as possible (yes, I know - I want it all  ).  My (tentative) plan right now is to run cat5e (or cat6) to each window, along with an 18/2 or similar wire for low-voltage power.
 
Questions:
 
1) Can I get away with a single CAT6 cord for both power & control?  I think it's 23AWG, x8 wires.  4 would go to control (up, down, ground), leaving 4 for power (2 positive, 2 ground).  The amp chart (at the powerstream site) recommends max .729 Amps for 23 AWG, so two pairs that would be 1.458A.  Assuming 12v, that's ~17 watts.  I've seen at least 1 somfy motor rated for 12v 1A, so it seems like this might work.  However, I realize I'm simplifying things here, and not taking into account heat, bundling, distance (60+ for the furthest 1st floor window, and possibly more for other floors), etc.  I'm guessing this idea is bad, just curious if it's feasible (since it would be nice to have 1 wire for each window).
 
2) If I have to go with ethernet + separate 12v power line, what kind of termination do people have at the actual window itself?  I haven't seen many pics of unfinished 12v power wire & how it exits the wall.  I want to wire all windows but not have motors yet, so I'm curious what I'll have to leave exposed until we do install motors.
 
3) If I'm looking for simple shades (up/down), what would be some recommendations for cheap motors?  Is <$100 each doable?
 
Sorry for the mess of questions, I've had these rolling around in my head for some time but have been too busy to properly research it (and now I'm down to the wire w/ installation).  Thanks!

No to the "single cat5" theory. Run it and a 16/2 and you should be set.
For the DC termination, I used these. Not cheap but perfect for finishing. I used a 3 position one gang keystone plate with that dc and a cat5 keystone. I'm using Somfy RTS so the cat5 isn't used but it's there.
Figure around $150 per window with RTS, more if hardwiring. I think it's even more than the $150 if you factor everything in, ie 1 gang box, cover plate, keystones, all wire and motors. This does not include the actual window treatment.

I've custom made my own keystone barrel connector inserts as I originally found that already made ones were too much for a keystone jack with barrel connector.  I am using these today for 5VDC and 12VDC keystone LV connections.  I used 16/2 CL2 to carry the voltage.
 
The coaxial connector was about $.50 and the blank keystone insert with hole was around same price. 
 
I am showing a picture of an RG-6 keystone insert which you can find for about $1 or less these days.

Frunple said:

No to the "single cat5" theory. Run it and a 16/2 and you should be set.
For the DC termination, I used these. Not cheap but perfect for finishing. I used a 3 position one gang keystone plate with that dc and a cat5 keystone. I'm using Somfy RTS so the cat5 isn't used but it's there.
Figure around $150 per window with RTS, more if hardwiring. I think it's even more than the $150 if you factor everything in, ie 1 gang box, cover plate, keystones, all wire and motors. This does not include the actual window treatment.

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Thanks, I figured the single-cat5 was a dead end.
 
Re: the DC termination - those keystone jacks need a keystone plate like this, right?  Is there any way to terminate DC & ethernet w/o needing a full size gang box & plate?  I'm fairly sure the wife wont go for full-size plates littering our walls.  Also, we have a lot of windows that can't have gang boxes directly adjacent due to framing & large headers, so the plates would be a bit further, making things a bit messy.  I can route channels to put in wire, but if there's a way to go w/o a gang box that would be ideal.
 
I'd love flush-mount DC & ethernet jacks right in the drywall itself, if that were at all possible & safe.
 

pete_c said:

I've custom made my own keystone barrel connector inserts as I originally found that already made ones were too much for a keystone jack with barrel connector.  I am using these today for 5VDC and 12VDC keystone LV connections.  I used 16/2 CL2 to carry the voltage.
 
The coaxial connector was about $.50 and the blank keystone insert with hole was around same price. 
 
I am showing a picture of an RG-6 keystone insert which you can find for about $1 or less these days.

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Good idea on the DIY route.  Not sure if I have time for that, but I do I'll definitely consider doing it this way.

You can go with small footprint surface mounted Keystone "boxes" maybe?

I put mine to the left of the window at the top. The valance and curtain will cover the wall plate so it won't even be seen. Somfy makes extension cables for their dc powered motors, the 10" was perfect.

I'm dealing with WAF here.  We're probably going to go with inside-mount roller shades, so a plate outside the window would be problematic.
 
Those surface mount wouldn't fly either, since they'd be even worse than a plate (ie. sticking out).  I do like the size though... can those be embedded flush into the wall, so the sockets are facing out?  I know they're not supposed to be used that way, just curious if anyone's tried anything that crazy.
 
I've put a few pictures below.  The first is the living room, the TV will be between those two windows.  On the right are the 3x large windows, with a big header above them.  How would I bring power to each window?
 
I've thought about routing a channel into the header (very shallow), and laying wire in there (to be covered by drywall).  I could bring the wire to the top of the window frame that way, but not sure what to do there.  I can't really have a keystone plate at the top of each window, no room w/ the header and it'd be too large/ugly anyway.
 
I've also thought about drilling a hole from the side into the actual window frame itself, but not sure how to go about that (especially for the windows in the middle).
 

 
Continuing on this wall, some more triple windows.
 

 
Ideally, I'd have those keystone plugs (power & ethernet) embedded in the window frame themselves, in the upper-left corners.  Then I can plug into them when needed, and they'd be small enough to ignore before we get the blinds up.  Not sure if anyone's done something like that before.  How do the fancy/professional houses get completely hidden wiring + inside-mount roller shades?
 
Tomorrow I go meet my electrician to (hopefully) give him the rundown for the final(ish) automation wiring; at this point I'm going to be holding up the build due to my lack of time to research exactly how I want all this wired.  Man, building a house takes some effort (!).

How do the fancy/professional houses get completely hidden wiring + inside-mount roller shades?

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From what I have seen they don't.  But that is me and what I have seen.
 
You could also maybe use a 4-6-8 pin DIN socket directly into the window frame.  You could then combine the power and the control wires to one multipin DIN. 
 
I let the contractor do a pre-wire on the alarm for a new house build.  He subcontracted an alarm company.  They were very good.  They did not terminate any of the cables.   All of the windows and doors were done.  Much thinner 22/4 cabling was utilized basically tucked into the window frame; then capped.  I terminated the cabling and was able to extend the wires out some such that it would be easy to terminate.  Some terminations I do not see and some I do today; but that is if I look; to a casual observer; they would not really see them. 
 
I helped a friend pre-wire his home a few years back.  He had custom woodwork / framing done around all of this doors and windows.  He did decide beforehand that he didn't want any wires going to the door or window frames; so none were installed; that was him though and his newly contructed home.  His wife was the one though having the carpenter do the custom woodwork and windows "dressings" stuff.  She does have a good eye for decorating stuff.  It looks really nice today. (3 years later).
 
You could also subcontract an automated shade company or just get a quote and tell them you do not want to see any cabling and see what they will provide or do for said endeavor.  They will either get very granular with the quote or just mention something about hiding the wires with no specifics. 
 
I originally asked the contractor to quote me a price for the specified LV wiring in a new home build and  to show me other homes which he had done LV wiring / configurations.  He was pleasant and very agreeable to showing me his other work.  Knowing what I wanted and what I saw (which was only OK) decided it was better for me to do most of the LV (other than the alarm wiring) wiring myself. 
 
On another new home I asked for some very specific HVAC zoning et al type stuff and was told "this is the way we do it" by the contractor; that said I canceled the home build some few months into construction and even got my initial deposit back.

pete_c said:

From what I have seen they don't.  But that is me and what I have seen.
 
You could also maybe use a 4-6-8 pin DIN socket directly into the window frame.  You could then combine the power and the control wires to one multipin DIN. 
 
I let the contractor do a pre-wire on the alarm for a new house build.  He subcontracted an alarm company.  They were very good.  They did not terminate any of the cables.   All of the windows and doors were done.  Much thinner 22/4 cabling was utilized basically tucked into the window frame; then capped.  I terminated the cabling and was able to extend the wires out some such that it would be easy to terminate.  Some terminations I do not see and some I do today; but that is if I look; to a casual observer; they would not really see them. 
 
I helped a friend pre-wire his home a few years back.  He had custom woodwork / framing done around all of this doors and windows.  He did decide beforehand that he didn't want any wires going to the door or window frames; so none were installed; that was him though and his newly contructed home.  His wife was the one though having the carpenter do the custom woodwork and windows "dressings" stuff.  She does have a good eye for decorating stuff.  It looks really nice today. (3 years later).

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I'm meeting the electrician in 1/2 hour to go over this, and the window/wiring issue is the biggest unknown in my head right now.  I think 22/4 is a great idea, the thinner the better.  I'm guessing I could use 22/4 to do power + control, instead of separate power (22/2) and control (cat5) lines?  That would definitely be nicer.  I'd have to home-run it all to a central box w/ power-supply, but that's probably not bad.
 
I'm most curious about the termination.  It sounds like for your build they just left loose wire that you terminated?  By "tucked into the frame", do you mean behind the molding or actually just sticking out of the wall/frame?  Kind of like the below drawing, but with a wire sticking out instead of a DIN plug there...
 
I really like that 4/6/8 DIN idea - one nice small connector that handles all wires.  Much nicer than a DC minijack + ethernet jack.  I imagine I could drill to the windows sideways, pull the wire through, put the DIN on the end, then push the DIN plug back into the hole till it's flush?
 
How could I get into the middle windows?  Drilling through the top will be hard (since there's a large header there).  I guess I could daisy chain - ie. drill from the left window to the middle one.  Not sure if that really works though.
 

 
Thanks again for all the responses, we'll see what we decide in a few hours...

Not sure how much of a load and type of motor used that could be handled by 22/2 or 22/4 wire.
 

I'm most curious about the termination.  It sounds like for your build they just left loose wire that you terminated?  By "tucked into the frame", do you mean behind the molding or actually just sticking out of the wall/frame?  Kind of like the below drawing, but with a wire sticking out instead of a DIN plug there...

Click to expand...

 
The alarm company (thinking this is the norm) put in little plastic caps with a large needle like threading hole that the wire looped through.  I pried the caps off (very carefully) and was able to pull out about 6 inches of wire.  I think that it was tucked in behind the frame in the cavity between the wood window frame and next wood support frame.  The wood surround frames were more than 4" wide some were 12". 
 
In Florida (new build) I have multiple 3 tier windows and the alarm company ran the cabling from the top down or left them on the top part of the frame.  Some were fixed and others were sliding side to side windows.  Some of the wiring also would go down in between inside of the window framing itself.  The alarm company prewire was very well done; as they knew their trade well and could hide just about any wires.  The only change I requested was that they home wire to the center of the house wiring closet.  They wanted to prewire to a master bedroom walk in closet panel.  That said though today the central wiring "wall" and cans and panel are almost hidden in such a way that it looks to be like a normal closet but has kind of a false wall in front of it.  It "appears" to be a shallow closet but it is more than twice the depth of its appearance (if that makes any sense?)  It is a PITA to service and takes a while to get to it today.
 
 
If on the top then the DIN would just go into the top part of the frame maybe or some good fishing into the frame of the window could put them into the sides.  Personally I have fished 90 degree angled holes in frames; its a PITA but simple.  I only knew that from what they had left unterminated as I didn't watch the alarm company prewire.
 

I imagine I could drill to the windows sideways, pull the wire through, put the DIN on the end, then push the DIN plug back into the hole till it's flush?

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Yes you could do that.  The issue with my friend was relating to the windows warranties themselves and what specifications related to the windows/window frame warranty.  He did make an issue about a couple of wood framed sliding glass doors (cost and warranty).  I suggested to put the mag switches below the framing and use more powerful magnets in or on the door framing as I have done that and it works well enough for me.  I do not get false positives even though the are not adjacent to each other.  This though is just related to the alarm switches.  In the 1980's we built a home and the alarm company used the screens and each of the window screens had a two wire small plug that plugged directly into a finished wood two plug flush receptacle.  Other windows just had glass breakage sensors using the two wires.  Here the concern was breaking or cutting accidently the screen and how to replace it.  We never did over the timeframe of about 20 years though.  The window wood frames were custom stained and the little screen alarm receptacles were barely noticed (unless you were looking).
 
The DIN can be flush and you will need to record or document the pin outs and colors of wires. 
 
On the double hung windows you have to make sure that you do not obstruct the stop of the window with the plug.  Here in the midwest my double hung windows go to the very top of the frame. 

The problem is that you technically cannot have wire connections be buried inside the wood frame or wall without the means to access it. This would make it difficult to have din socket flush mounted. We just drilled a hole in the frame and pulled the wire out, then terminated it on a mini terminal strip and painted it over with the window trim color. It also helps if you use 22/4 wire instead of cat5 for control, as it is much thinner, but for power you'll need at least 18/2, but 16/2 is recommended. If you have a plug for the power within 10' of the motor, you can use 18/2. Over 60' you should go with 14/2 unless it's a small shade. For the middle windows you could run wire inside the window frame before they cover it with the trim.

picta said:

The problem is that you technically cannot have wire connections be buried inside the wood frame or wall without the means to access it. This would make it difficult to have din socket flush mounted. We just drilled a hole in the frame and pulled the wire out, then terminated it on a mini terminal strip and painted it over with the window trim color. It also helps if you use 22/4 wire instead of cat5 for control, as it is much thinner, but for power you'll need at least 18/2, but 16/2 is recommended. If you have a plug for the power within 10' of the motor, you can use 18/2. Over 60' you should go with 14/2 unless it's a small shade. For the middle windows you could run wire inside the window frame before they cover it with the trim.

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A din socket can be press-fit to be practically flush and pulled out to access the wiring, much like a doorbell button.

It's been a few days.  I spec'd out 22/4 for all the windows, then stupidly realized my mistake - the Somfy RTS (for example) need 12v @ 1amp, and 22 is spec'd for .9A for power transmission (and I'm guessing has issues with resistance, voltage drop, and heat for long distances).  So I need more for power.
 
They've started the wiring but are not done.  My options:
 
1) Use both pairs of the 22/4 for power (so 2x 22AWG instead of 1x 18AWG), and run an additional 22AWG for control.
 
2) Use one pair of the 22/4 for control, leave the other unused, and run an additional 18AWG for power.
 
I think I'll do #1.  Seems like a waste to leave some pairs unused and run a thicker wire.  #2 seems better given that there's already a bit (lot?) of 22/4 wired up.
 
It's my fault for not knowing more before having the electrician go ahead.  But that's what happens when you have too much to do and not enough time.
 
 

pete_c said:

Not sure how much of a load and type of motor used that could be handled by 22/2 or 22/4 wire.
 
The DIN can be flush and you will need to record or document the pin outs and colors of wires. 
 
On the double hung windows you have to make sure that you do not obstruct the stop of the window with the plug.  Here in the midwest my double hung windows go to the very top of the frame. 

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Right now I'm planning on putting the DIN's clear of the front sash.  Also, I don't think the front sash goes clear to the top - close, but not completely.  Should be fine.
 

picta said:

The problem is that you technically cannot have wire connections be buried inside the wood frame or wall without the means to access it. This would make it difficult to have din socket flush mounted. We just drilled a hole in the frame and pulled the wire out, then terminated it on a mini terminal strip and painted it over with the window trim color. It also helps if you use 22/4 wire instead of cat5 for control, as it is much thinner, but for power you'll need at least 18/2, but 16/2 is recommended. If you have a plug for the power within 10' of the motor, you can use 18/2. Over 60' you should go with 14/2 unless it's a small shade. For the middle windows you could run wire inside the window frame before they cover it with the trim.

Click to expand...

 
Technically, meaning per code?  Or practically, meaning you can't physically access it?  I think right now I'll have the wires sticking out of a hole, then I'll terminate with DIN plugs, and push it flush.  I want to push in a little slack so there's the (slight) possibility of being able to pull it out a tiny bit if I need later on.
 

az1324 said:

A din socket can be press-fit to be practically flush and pulled out to access the wiring, much like a doorbell button.

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That's my plan.
 
 
This is all a mess, but hopefully running an additional line will help.  It's hard to wire up before I've figured out what motor(s) I even want & what their requirements are, but like I said... have to make some decisions now or it'll never get done.  Hopefully I have enough leeway to do what I need later (could always go wireless, use custom motors, etc).

Yeah I like #2 better:
 

2) Use one pair of the 22/4 for control, leave the other unused, and run an additional 18AWG for power.

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Seems like a waste to burn down your house for motorized blinds.

Wait, that's not what you said. You said its a waste to leave spare pairs. My bad.