Travis4710
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I currently have HV Gentex 503FF smoke detectors installed and was wanting to wire them into the panel. I know this is a touchy subject, but what type of zone should I set these up as on my Elk M1?
Smoke Detector Zone
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Travis4710
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So will the type 5 work even though it's not a true 4 wire smoke?jpmargis said:
Travis4710
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Tried definition 10, type 5 but now the Elk is showing a zone problem. Any suggestions?
jpmargis said:
Supervision relay means nothing here...the devices aren't powered off the panel and can have power anywhere the HV is run and they're connected, so in theory, the only wire that would need to go between units is the traveler/signal line.
For both CO and FA on the M1, the resistor is installed in parallel and the cables are landed as NO devices.
I just commissioned a dormitory with these units installed...literally 750 in 150 dorm units, all connected to monitor modules on an addressable FACP.
There's a lot more than putting a supervision relay on the last smoke and saying it's monitoring the devices or the entire circuit for power and integrity because it's not going to!
Even if the detectors are wired continuous with a single 14/3 to the last detector, the only way to connect these units is to have all the detectors pigtailed to the in/out cabling with wire nuts, etc. There's no provision to connect the wiring as an in/outbound series, contrary to normal alarm system smokes. Pull the detector off the baseplate and unplug it, it'll leave the wiring intact, no change in circuit integrity and the 120VAC is going to go from the first detector to the last, so again, even if you install a RIB relay to supervise the presence of 120VAC at the last detector in a loop (end of line, right?),all that RIB is going to tell you is if there's 120VAC on the circuit, not if the individual detector(s) themselves have power or are even connected to the circuit feeding the power to the RIB.
If the connection for the contacts to ancillary equipment is anywhere in the loop besides the last detector, the entire circuit downstream can be dead and the contacts on the unit are never going to change. The same goes for the traveler, it can be disconnected or cut anywhere and the system is never going to know it...and there's no way to supervise that 9V traveler/tandem connection because there's no voltage on it in "normal" conditions. So in actuality, what is the supervision relay going to tell you about the circuit in this case compared to a 4 wire LV fire alarm circuit? If you remove a detector or power on a LV circuit, the circuit is opened and the power is either not continuous (relay opens) or the circuit is opened, not so on a HV system unless you install a RIB at every detector, and still, that does nothing to supervise if the detector is removed. Even if you run a circuit along every detector in the loop for FA and CO notification, the way the plug and pigtails are configured, it still will not open the circuit if the detector is removed from the circuit. REMEMBER: on a LV system any cabling installed in/under terminals MUST be physically broken and NOT twisted together. The better designed units actually separate the in/out pairs of the circuit. If you have a 4 wire system, you have 8 conductors under the terminals. If you have a 2 wire system, you have 4 conductors under the terminals, contrary to how HV systems are connected.
Also, keep in mind, by installing these units and their connection to the ancillary equipment, that in itself necessitates the installation of a listed box divider to separate out the dry contacts and LV cabling from the 120V feed....so now the installation is going to be further complicated to be compliant.
Have a good day
There's a lot more than putting a supervision relay on the last smoke and saying it's monitoring the devices or the entire circuit for power and integrity because it's not going to!
Even if the detectors are wired continuous with a single 14/3 to the last detector, the only way to connect these units is to have all the detectors pigtailed to the in/out cabling with wire nuts, etc. There's no provision to connect the wiring as an in/outbound series, contrary to normal alarm system smokes. Pull the detector off the baseplate and unplug it, it'll leave the wiring intact, no change in circuit integrity and the 120VAC is going to go from the first detector to the last, so again, even if you install a RIB relay to supervise the presence of 120VAC at the last detector in a loop (end of line, right?),all that RIB is going to tell you is if there's 120VAC on the circuit, not if the individual detector(s) themselves have power or are even connected to the circuit feeding the power to the RIB.
If the connection for the contacts to ancillary equipment is anywhere in the loop besides the last detector, the entire circuit downstream can be dead and the contacts on the unit are never going to change. The same goes for the traveler, it can be disconnected or cut anywhere and the system is never going to know it...and there's no way to supervise that 9V traveler/tandem connection because there's no voltage on it in "normal" conditions. So in actuality, what is the supervision relay going to tell you about the circuit in this case compared to a 4 wire LV fire alarm circuit? If you remove a detector or power on a LV circuit, the circuit is opened and the power is either not continuous (relay opens) or the circuit is opened, not so on a HV system unless you install a RIB at every detector, and still, that does nothing to supervise if the detector is removed. Even if you run a circuit along every detector in the loop for FA and CO notification, the way the plug and pigtails are configured, it still will not open the circuit if the detector is removed from the circuit. REMEMBER: on a LV system any cabling installed in/under terminals MUST be physically broken and NOT twisted together. The better designed units actually separate the in/out pairs of the circuit. If you have a 4 wire system, you have 8 conductors under the terminals. If you have a 2 wire system, you have 4 conductors under the terminals, contrary to how HV systems are connected.
Also, keep in mind, by installing these units and their connection to the ancillary equipment, that in itself necessitates the installation of a listed box divider to separate out the dry contacts and LV cabling from the 120V feed....so now the installation is going to be further complicated to be compliant.
Have a good day
Cliff notes for you since you missed the point:
I made the statement as to I've recently installed many of the specific detector the OP is discussing, inferring that I've had some experience with their wiring and functionality. That is the point where you chose to stop reading.
A dormitory room with 4 bedrooms and a common area on the same circuit is essentially the same electrically as a small house install with 5 smokes installed per "room" (as an example most common 4 bedroom homes would have 7 smokes). Same general wiring practices and installation, with the exception I'm connected to a FACP module which is no different than a panel's zone.
The installation functions the same if it is wired in a dorm or a single family residence if the installation criteria is the same.
The supervision relay does nothing no matter where it's placed or connected. It only supervises if there's 120VAC on the circuit, not any form of circuit or detector integrity, let alone detector functionality. Every detector downstream from the system connected detector can be removed or non-functional and it would never be noticed or annunciated.
Have a sparkling day!
I made the statement as to I've recently installed many of the specific detector the OP is discussing, inferring that I've had some experience with their wiring and functionality. That is the point where you chose to stop reading.
A dormitory room with 4 bedrooms and a common area on the same circuit is essentially the same electrically as a small house install with 5 smokes installed per "room" (as an example most common 4 bedroom homes would have 7 smokes). Same general wiring practices and installation, with the exception I'm connected to a FACP module which is no different than a panel's zone.
The installation functions the same if it is wired in a dorm or a single family residence if the installation criteria is the same.
The supervision relay does nothing no matter where it's placed or connected. It only supervises if there's 120VAC on the circuit, not any form of circuit or detector integrity, let alone detector functionality. Every detector downstream from the system connected detector can be removed or non-functional and it would never be noticed or annunciated.
Have a sparkling day!
So if I install a supervision relay and pull every smoke detector down, what is the point? Doesn't do a thing to let the system know, nor if a detector is not properly functioning (hopefully they're routinely tested).
The supervision relay is for system integrity, not whether or not power exists...if what you stated was true, then literally almost every fire alarm install out there would be wrong and there'd be a lot of creative wiring and a lot of incidents.
Keep having a sparking day!
The supervision relay is for system integrity, not whether or not power exists...if what you stated was true, then literally almost every fire alarm install out there would be wrong and there'd be a lot of creative wiring and a lot of incidents.
Keep having a sparking day!
Don't forget to put one at each detector then......it would be necessary to supervise the power for each detector as the connections aren't continuous daisy chained for each detector....you can have detectors with no power and the supervision relay wouldn't supervise!
Sparkling day again!
Sparkling day again!
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