Elk M1 Gold and lighting interface recommendations?

I'm a DIYer that is looking to integrate some lighting into my Elk setup. I will probably start somewhat small with a dozen or so switches but will eventually expand. I'm not married to any protocols but I'm leaning towards UPB.
 
From everything I've read about UPB integration, I thought I'd provide the following just in case it answers any of my questions.
 
2 electrical panels (1 main downstairs + 1 subpanel upstairs).
M1 is upstairs fed from the subpanel (if that matters).
M1XSP is currently being used for Uplink monitoring.
Most UPB switches will be fed from main downstairs panel (if that matters).
 
My questions are the following:
 
What all do I need for integrating UPB? I assume just a separate M1XSP is needed w/ a PIM or the M1PCSPIM1 which has both?
 
Once the PIM and Elk are in place, is any additional programming required or is that all done in the Elk RP?
 
Anyone see issues with leveraging a phase coupler if I'm looking to avoid some of the realiability issues I've read about with UPB signal communications? Is there downside, if you don't need it? Should I use for each panel? Any you might recommend?
 
Sorry for all the questions. Thank you for all the help. This forum was invaluable last year to helping me shop and install!

I have Lutron's RadioRa2 and I'm very happy with it. It is a little more expensive but since you're going to do like I've done, expanding a little at a time will be more palatable. The main thing that attracted me to RadioRa2 was the wide selection of devices and they were very elegant. Also, the hybrid keypad allows you to control a local load (light) and select which button controls it. If you found a keypad on another technology that could also control a local load, it almost always has to have the local load as the top most button. That didn't work for me. RadioRa2 was reported to be rock solid and I can honestly say I have not had one single issue with my RadioRa2 devices (3 hybrid keypads, 7 switches, 4 dimmers, 6 remote switches/dimmers(3-way), 1 motion detector, 2 Pico controls). Another draw back is Lutron is pseudo DIY friendly. To get access to the software for 100 devices, you will need to take BLAST training. You would need to go to onsite Lutron training, like a pro would! to get access to deploy 200 device solutions. Also, the Elk interface for RadioRa2 is $200-300.

I looked at UPB and Zwave options among others and UPB looked good but when I decided about a year ago, I hadn't seen much happening with UPB and the devices were a step down in terms of elegance, especially compared to RadioRa2. Also, some with UPB have had absolute bullet proof reliability and others have had issues and you won't know which until you put it in your house (some had problems with noisy fans, pool pumps, things down the street, etc). Also, you'll need to plug in or wire a device to marry the two legs of your electrical panel so devices on each side can talk to each other.

Zwave seemed like it had more options but there were more reports of reliability issues. Also, even though there were more options in terms of light switches, there were still gaps in offerings. Many use Zwave for other automation such as thermostats and door locks while using something like UPB for lighting. No need to have both on the same technology and might even be better as you want the lighting to be bullet proof reliable.

Good luck in your choices and welcome to the board.

David

I'm actually partially waffling my Zwave lighting decision, but have other (higher priority) projects going on to start changing anything right now. I have roughly 20 or so Zwave devices; dimmers, switches, receptacles, and/or deadbolts. I'll say that I have no problem at all with the reliability and have no issues at all on that front. My issue is lack of devices that support beaming, instant feedback, and work with LED/CFLs.
 
To discuss each of those in a bit more detail:
 - Beaming devices are required to communicate with devices such as deadbolts and thermostats (I believe on the thermostats). Seeing as I have deadbolts, and want to keep them (not a ton of options here)... I need beaming devices.
 
 - Instant feedback is something that none of my devices currently have. This was an oversight on my part when I initially purchased my Zwave dimmers, but it's not a total deal breaker for me. Instant feedback occurs when the device automatically sends an update message any time it's used (whether turned on or off... and whether it was done via remote or manually) to keep track of it's current status. Having said that, each time I use a switch manually, that information is not reflected to my HA system. There is a work-around, which would be to poll the network on a regular basis and some people do this. I've refused to do so, primarily because I don't want the added drain on my deadbolt batteries for them to have to constantly report if they are secure or not; my deadbolts actually do report their status when used. This alone is a major reason that I'm looking to make a switch (pun??) sometime in the future.
 
- LED/CFL support. It's known that the days of the incandescent bulb are numbered. There are Zwave dimmers that have been reported to work with LED and/or CFL bulbs. However, I haven't seen ONE YET, that can also do both of the above (beaming and instant feedback) and work with LED/CFL bulbs.
 
I really have been happy with my Zwave network and devices. They've served me well, and were definitely a gateway piece to me getting acquainted with HA... but today, I'm looking for more that what they are able to provide. As David mentioned above, I may very likely end up with a mixed technology system myself; UPB for lighting, with Zwave receptacles that support beaming for my deadbolts (and soon to be added thermostat). I never use the receptacles manually (at least not controlling them on/off) so I don't really care so much about them having the instant feedback.

Thanks for the feedback guys.
 
On marrying the two panels piece, how is this handled?
 
As you may tell, I'm still leaning a little towards UPB but that's just mainly because I don't want to end up spending my next 2 months weighing options like I did with my initial Elk purchase. I finally just went with my gut on what all I wanted and it worked out ok. UPB seemed simple, so I jumped on it.
 
I'd figure going with Elk's cheap all-in-one interface and inexpensive switches shouldn't require a whole lot of additional install and learning. Am I wrong here or is there something I'm missing?
 
Thanks again guys!

$60-70 a switch is not really cheap. I believe UPB and Vizia+ switches are similarly priced with RA2 much higher. When you spending more than $50 a switch, warranty and support become more critical IMHO.
I just installed a Vizia+ 2-button switches; unfortunately the locator LEDs are not working for some odd reason. I am hoping they will resolve this problem. Leviton does seem to be fixing problems in their software.

I agree that RadioRa2 is expensive but it has been rock solid and simply works. Their software in my experience just works. Definitely not like some of the systems I've read about. When I was doing my research I didn't read about any real issues with RadioRa2 except people complaining about cost and hoops to get software. I'm not trying to push RadioRa2 as I know there are other good options but at no point have I second guessed my decision to go with RadioRa2.

Nailed it....
 
When it comes to lighting it's a "get what you pay for" balanced with the product itself. Ra works, as do a bunch of others, but you're going to pay for it.
 
Unfortunately, as with most products, once you get away from what is easily obtained from common distributorship into certified installer product lines, the features and reliability increase (not saying there aren't quirks out there).

I have an Elk M1 panel with 40 SA UPB switches and its been pretty reliable for me over the last 5 years.  It has been really reliable for me in general.  The only problems I had were the odd switch losing its programming (3 times, different switches) and I have a noisy Panasonic microwave which causes all link commands to the affected phase to fail.  I still have to wire up a 15A filter for it.. one of these days.
 
We're going to be developing the basement and I was thinking of maybe using this as a good excuse to try out the zwave devices and swap out the dead bolts as well but I'm getting the impression UPB is still a pretty good choice for lighting.
 
** Edit 1 **
Does anyone know how well LED light bulbs work with the UPB switches?  My house is almost all CFL and I don't seem to have any issues..... aside from the lack of being able to dim the lights.
** Edit 2 **
Seems the SA switches work fine with LED lights according to the lighting thread.  I wonder why the zwave switches have various models for CFL and LED lights.
 
My 2 cents!

I'm currently changing over a client who had omni pro 2 with upb to elk m1 gold. cannot get elk m1 to enroll pim module. Also he has Leviton's 7 inch touch screens and want to keep them .how do integrate them ?