paralysis by analysis

I think this is the first time I've ever joined a forum and actually posted on their "hello" forum. Not sure why I'm doing it, I doubt many people read this.
 
Anyway, I am looking to put a home automation system in along with a home theater. And the amount of information I have to process is mind numbing. No two people I talk to can agree on anything and the information I read is totally conflicting so I never seem to get any closer to that elusive moment of clarity. I'm just spinning around in circles.
 
I came into this project thinking I wanted a z-wave home automation system. But there isn't a single HT/HA professional who wants to discuss it. And just when I start warming up to the idea of Control 4 I get more information that turns me away from it again. I'm having the whole house remodeled so this is the time to get all those controllers and switches and sensors and wiring put in. I can't start small and work my way up; I have to go big now and I have to get it right because I'm not going to tear everything up again later.
 
This site looks like a great source of information but I hope all the info will help get me closer to clarity rather than just confuse me further. I'm extremely tech savvy and hands on but my head is spinning from information overload.
 
/rant
 
So that's me. I'll try not to post too many noob questions but if anyone has a great suggestion for how to get my head above water and get some direction I'm all ears!
 
 

I'm no longer in the industry, but from what I'm hearing, most of the pro installations are going UPB, or something proprietary, i.e. Lutron.  If it doesn't work flawlessly right out of the box, the pros aren't going to use it.  I recently upgraded my 15 year old X10 installation to z-wave, and the old tuned X10 system was more reliable than the new untuned z-wave system.  Not the type of result I'd want if every service call to work on the system would chew into the bottom line.  Depending on the size of your installation, you may have better luck.  Supposedly, z-wave works best with 50> devices, while my install is >70 devices.

Welcome to the forum uscpsycho.
 
Here started with X10 in the late 1970's until the 2000's; keeping X10; migrating much to Insteon; then to UPB.
 
That said I do also have Zigbee and Z-Wave in the house today. 
 
Mostly all of the UPB light switches are in metal cans and I have metal conduit.  Appliance and external lighting modules are a hodgepodge today.  I mix and match the variables pages; IE: lighting is just defined as that; not specific to the technology; rather just an on off dim thing with the lighting variables.
 
Also playing with LV (12 VDC) automation of LED lighting at the LV source versus the HV source.  First test has been to utilize a combo wireless / wired RGB controller but just for all LED lighting rather than the three colors.  Using the "wireless" controller in "wired" serial mode.  I did "build" a start point with multiple LED lighting transformers as my source.  This does make it easier to control (or automate) the 12VDC stuff.  Still have in place though HV (trickle?) EL lighting in place; but it glows more than it illuminates (if that makes sense?).  This stuff is over 10 years old and continues to work fine these days.  This past holiday season used EL rope lighing for some decorations with small 12VDC power supplies for each segment of EL lighting connected to X10 appliance switches.  All of the 4 "test" EL lighting ropes appear to have lost their gas?  (indoors after about 30 days or so).
 
I have recently (now two years) gone back to X10 for the holiday lighting as its fast to just set the dials for one house code.
 
I am also now playing with linux stuff talking to legacy X10 these days and pure meat (without the fluff) processing of Zigbee and Z-wave a la Almond + (virginal chatting to the devices).
 
Relating to the home theater thing; it's up to your imagination these days; automation hardware is relatively inexpensive.  You can "create" that whole theater environment with lighting and sound and sight thing easily enough.  Here I keep it simple and keep the automation autonomous relating to my theater experience.  Nothing fancy.    Most time consuming pieces were how and where placement of the 7.1 speaker stuff.  Another mix and match of in wall / in ceiling and externally mounted speakers. I wanted to make everything sort of symmetrical and functional; penciling ceiling and walls for a couple of days before installation.  That and making the room esthetically pleasing for the WAF pieces. I did move the sub woofer piece to the back of the room (sort of hidden out of sight).  I also added HV electric to the room and subdivided the circuits a bit.  (also providing a bit more granularity to the HV lighting stuff - did add switches)  I have though gone though 3-4 center speakers choosing one for its size and sound and placement.
 
Have a read on the variety of show and tell DIY endeavors involving similar to what it is you want to do;  many are unique and many are similar.
 
Enjoy your visit here on Cocoontech!

jlehnert said:

I'm no longer in the industry, but from what I'm hearing, most of the pro installations are going UPB, or something proprietary, i.e. Lutron.  If it doesn't work flawlessly right out of the box, the pros aren't going to use it.  I recently upgraded my 15 year old X10 installation to z-wave, and the old tuned X10 system was more reliable than the new untuned z-wave system.  Not the type of result I'd want if every service call to work on the system would chew into the bottom line.  Depending on the size of your installation, you may have better luck.  Supposedly, z-wave works best with 50> devices, while my install is >70 devices.

Click to expand...

One of the reasons I want to use z-wave is I don't want to be relying on anyone. I'd like to get someone who is very familiar with z-wave to put me on the right path, install everything, do the initial programming and then set me free. But my impression is there isn't a lot of room for someone to make money on z-wave  equipment since you can buy it anywhere. Installers want to make money on the equipment, on the installation and on the maintenance. Thanks, but no thanks.
 
If I wasn't doing this in the middle of a major house remodel I would take all the time I need to figure this out for myself before starting. But there are so many other things I have to do that there is no time for me to dig in as much as I'd like to. And I don't have the luxury of time because this all has to happen before the walls get patched back up.
 
You mentioned your z-wave is untuned. I wasn't aware that z-wave required tuning. How do you tune a z-wave system? And my system is going to be big, I had a guy estimate 40 light switches minimum. And that's just switches.
 

pete_c said:

Welcome to the forum uscpsycho.
 
Here started with X10 in the late 1970's until the 2000's; keeping X10; migrating much to Insteon; then to UPB.
 
That said I do also have Zigbee and Z-Wave in the house today. 
 
Mostly all of the UPB light switches are in metal cans and I have metal conduit.  Appliance and external lighting modules are a hodgepodge today.  I mix and match the variables pages; IE: lighting is just defined as that; not specific to the technology; rather just an on off dim thing with the lighting variables.
 
Also playing with LV (12 VDC) automation of LED lighting at the LV source versus the HV source.  First test has been to utilize a combo wireless / wired RGB controller but just for all LED lighting rather than the three colors.  Using the "wireless" controller in "wired" serial mode.  I did "build" a start point with multiple LED lighting transformers as my source.  This does make it easier to control (or automate) the 12VDC stuff.  Still have in place though HV (trickle?) EL lighting in place; but it glows more than it illuminates (if that makes sense?).  This stuff is over 10 years old and continues to work fine these days.  This past holiday season used EL rope lighing for some decorations with small 12VDC power supplies for each segment of EL lighting connected to X10 appliance switches.  All of the 4 "test" EL lighting ropes appear to have lost their gas?  (indoors after about 30 days or so).
 
I have recently (now two years) gone back to X10 for the holiday lighting as its fast to just set the dials for one house code.
 
I am also now playing with linux stuff talking to legacy X10 these days and pure meat (without the fluff) processing of Zigbee and Z-wave a la Almond + (virginal chatting to the devices).
 
Relating to the home theater thing; it's up to your imagination these days; automation hardware is relatively inexpensive.  You can "create" that whole theater environment with lighting and sound and sight thing easily enough.  Here I keep it simple and keep the automation autonomous relating to my theater experience.  Nothing fancy.    Most time consuming pieces were how and where placement of the 7.1 speaker stuff.  Another mix and match of in wall / in ceiling and externally mounted speakers. I wanted to make everything sort of symmetrical and functional; penciling ceiling and walls for a couple of days before installation.  That and making the room esthetically pleasing for the WAF pieces. I did move the sub woofer piece to the back of the room (sort of hidden out of sight).  I also added HV electric to the room and subdivided the circuits a bit.  (also providing a bit more granularity to the HV lighting stuff - did add switches)  I have though gone though 3-4 center speakers choosing one for its size and sound and placement.
 
Have a read on the variety of show and tell DIY endeavors involving similar to what it is you want to do;  many are unique and many are similar.
 
Enjoy your visit here on Cocoontech!

Click to expand...

To be honest, a lot of this stuff is going over my head. I'm not an electrician so don't understand the acronyms (LV, HV, EL...) but I am interested in what you said about LED lighting. I very much want to have RGB lighting both inside and out. As far as I know with z-wave the only RGB controller is made by Fibaro and it sounds like it's not so easy to use. Are there other ways to control RGB lighting from a home automation system? I was getting used to the idea that I'd probably have to use a separate light controller to adjust the RGB which would not be integrated into my home automation. What are my options for changing the colors? (z-wave or other)
 
Am I understanding correctly that some of your LED lights have already started to fail just since December? 
 
For home theater, the actual theater itself shouldn't be too complicated. But these guys are throwing video and audio distribution into the mix which makes everything way more complicated and expensive. I'm starting to think that I will be perfectly happy with a receiver and BRD player in the theater. Having an 8x8 hdbaset sounds like it will be cool but I doubt I'll take advantage of it all that often.
 
I had one guy recommend running four or five cat5/6 cables to each room just to be ready for anything that comes along in the future. Is that really necessary or is that overkill?

Apologies relating to HV, LV and EL.
 
HV - high voltage ; personally here 120VAC stuff
LV - low voltage; personally here 12VDC stuff
 
EL - electroluminescent - personally here have 120VAC and 12VDC EL stuff
 

I'm not an electrician

Click to expand...

 
This is where you would pay an electrician "guru" for his expertise at wiring say Z-Wave with a general electrican knowledge base.  This happens to be the same whatever automation HV switches you are installing though.
 

z-wave the only RGB controller is made by Fibaro

Click to expand...

 
New stuff and more to come.  I am playing with an older "analog" wireless 802.11X combo RS-232 RGB controller.  There are also new digital Rasberry Pi based RGB controllers out there now.
 

Are there other ways to control RGB lighting from a home automation system? I was getting used to the idea that I'd probably have to use a separate light controller to adjust the RGB which would not be integrated into my home automation. What are my options for changing the colors? (z-wave or other)

Click to expand...

 
PLC, Wireless, et al.  The one I am playing with has an interface which mimics the propietary software for the RGB controller (its all very similiar) and now includes an audio interface such that the LEDs dance to the music.
 

I had one guy recommend running four or five cat5/6 cables to each room just to be ready for anything that comes along in the future. Is that really necessary or is that overkill?

Click to expand...

 
Personally here I am more of a wire person than a wireless person.  Such that I do have multiple runs of cat5e per room in the house.  Overdid a bit and installed a cat5e jack in the bathroom a couple of weeks ago.  The master bedroom has 4 behind the media center and 4 behind the bed (nightstand tabletop POE touch screens; alarm clocks on steroids; internet, weather, radio streaming, cctv, lighting control, et al.  While I utilize wireless; multimedia, automation stuff is almost all wired.  IE: network, RS-232 and USB and or virtual serial or USB via the network.  Playing with (its very new) Gb wireless AC; short range stuff though.
 

Am I understanding correctly that some of your LED lights have already started to fail just since December?

Click to expand...

 
Yup but these have been in place (outdoor ones) for a few years now and they were buried under snow.  I just repaired them.  The LED lamps were fine.  A snow plow had moved them (with the snow) ripping the LV wires out some. It was just patching up the wires and all was good afterwards. 
 
The audio here today is via a Russound zoned audio system with integration into the automation text to speech stuff.  Today the video and audio (including streaming live TV and internet) is simple.  Just XBMC little boxes connecting to NAS for music or video and a MythTV box for DVR / Live TV stuff (aside from the XBMC boxes, you can stream on tablets, phones or laptops or computers in the house).  I have removed all of the DVD / Blue ray players.  Its very simple today with an LCD, Multimedia receiver, XBMC streaming box and nothing else these days.  The MythTV box has some 6 tuners in it for viewing multiple sources of live TV and or recording stuff. I still also have in house multiple SD TV channels running on the RG6 cables.  IE kitchen area has some 3 LCD TVs which my wife watches moving from main kitchen area to dining nook to laundry room adjacent (separate room) concurrently watch the same DVR recorded event and using IR blasters for her control of her DVR (very high on the WAF).  Note that this is a DIY thing versus an "off the shelf" thing (we do have satellite, OTA (over the air) and cable TV).  Personally though I do not watch broadcast TV here; wife does.  Note as you read through the forum; you will see all or many of the options you can do; as many folks here utilize just about everything available today for multimedia stuff.  (also have "squeeze" stuff in place).
 
WAF -  "Wife Acceptance Factor"; personally necessary or necessity for automation acceptance / wife compliance in our family organizational unit.

Welcome.  I too went through some of that.  After looking at Insteon, Zwave, UPB, and others, I ended up with Lutron RadioRa2 for my lighting, which is on the upper-end of the spectrum.  The reason I chose RadioRa2 was that it was elegant and 100% reliable.  By elegant I mean that the switches and keypads are so much nicer than anything made for Zwave or UPB in my opinion.  Regarding the ability to do it yourself, you need to take a short online training and then you have access to the software that allows you to have 100 devices.  The RadioRa2 software supports up to 200 devices but to get that software, you'd have to attend a 2-day(or 3?) training session at a Lutron location.
 
For automation, I use the CQC software since the only automation provided by the Lutron software is to turn on/off lights at a certain time.
 
One thing I will say about home automation, especially if you come from a technical background is that home automation is not about technology, it is about reliability.  This is why you have systems like the HAI OmniPro and Elk that are...frankly...old.  They are usually 100% reliable so there is that but don't expect anything new to be added quickly.  This was something that frustrated me greatly and sometimes still does.  The other thing to get used to is that just about everything is custom and usually different devices don't talk to each unless you go with something like Control4.
 
Welcome and good luck.

Welcome!  I think more people will see your post than you'd expect - I think a lot of us kinda of ignore the different sub-forums and just look at anything new.
 
Walls open is really the time to get the wiring in - you don't necessarily have to get everything right for picking lighting technologies - hell, throw in regular switches and come back - unless you're going with a hardwired lighting solution (for which there's no real need) then come back; or if you can decide which technology you want, you can have a regular ol' electrician install them as basic switches, then you can program them later if you want. 
 
The main thing to do while the walls are open is to get any wiring in place you could possibly need - luckily these days just about anything can run over Cat5 (at least for media distribution) so honestly I'd suggest focusing your efforts there and back off trying to figure out every technology choice. 
 
That said there's a primer on UPB in my signature - it's a little old but I have ~65 UPB switches working flawlessly and they've been great to have in place as I've moved to LED lighting - no issues at all, especially with the CREE bulbs.  There's even a couple places where I had ballasted fluorescent fixtures that I've converted over - 10 seconds in the software and dimming was enabled and fade rates adjusted.  I'm still quite happy with the solution and would probably do it again if I were building new right now.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. Would have responded sooner but after I had written most of this my browser decided to crash so I had to start from scratch.
 
I'm meeting with a new HA guy tomorrow. Any really important things I should ask him that a noob like me may not think to ask?
 

pete_c said:

Apologies relating to HV, LV and EL.
 
HV - high voltage ; personally here 120VAC stuff
LV - low voltage; personally here 12VDC stuff
 
EL - electroluminescent - personally here have 120VAC and 12VDC EL stuff
 
 
This is where you would pay an electrician "guru" for his expertise at wiring say Z-Wave with a general electrican knowledge base.  This happens to be the same whatever automation HV switches you are installing though.
 
 
New stuff and more to come.  I am playing with an older "analog" wireless 802.11X combo RS-232 RGB controller.  There are also new digital Rasberry Pi based RGB controllers out there now.
 
 
PLC, Wireless, et al.  The one I am playing with has an interface which mimics the propietary software for the RGB controller (its all very similiar) and now includes an audio interface such that the LEDs dance to the music.
 
 
Personally here I am more of a wire person than a wireless person.  Such that I do have multiple runs of cat5e per room in the house.  Overdid a bit and installed a cat5e jack in the bathroom a couple of weeks ago.  The master bedroom has 4 behind the media center and 4 behind the bed (nightstand tabletop POE touch screens; alarm clocks on steroids; internet, weather, radio streaming, cctv, lighting control, et al.  While I utilize wireless; multimedia, automation stuff is almost all wired.  IE: network, RS-232 and USB and or virtual serial or USB via the network.  Playing with (its very new) Gb wireless AC; short range stuff though.
 
 
Yup but these have been in place (outdoor ones) for a few years now and they were buried under snow.  I just repaired them.  The LED lamps were fine.  A snow plow had moved them (with the snow) ripping the LV wires out some. It was just patching up the wires and all was good afterwards. 
 
The audio here today is via a Russound zoned audio system with integration into the automation text to speech stuff.  Today the video and audio (including streaming live TV and internet) is simple.  Just XBMC little boxes connecting to NAS for music or video and a MythTV box for DVR / Live TV stuff (aside from the XBMC boxes, you can stream on tablets, phones or laptops or computers in the house).  I have removed all of the DVD / Blue ray players.  Its very simple today with an LCD, Multimedia receiver, XBMC streaming box and nothing else these days.  The MythTV box has some 6 tuners in it for viewing multiple sources of live TV and or recording stuff. I still also have in house multiple SD TV channels running on the RG6 cables.  IE kitchen area has some 3 LCD TVs which my wife watches moving from main kitchen area to dining nook to laundry room adjacent (separate room) concurrently watch the same DVR recorded event and using IR blasters for her control of her DVR (very high on the WAF).  Note that this is a DIY thing versus an "off the shelf" thing (we do have satellite, OTA (over the air) and cable TV).  Personally though I do not watch broadcast TV here; wife does.  Note as you read through the forum; you will see all or many of the options you can do; as many folks here utilize just about everything available today for multimedia stuff.  (also have "squeeze" stuff in place).
 
WAF -  "Wife Acceptance Factor"; personally necessary or necessity for automation acceptance / wife compliance in our family organizational unit.

Click to expand...

 
Sorry, can't figure out how to parse your post into several sections as you did mine.  Is it necessary to find an electrician with z-wave-specific experience? I don't think I'm going to find that since I can't even find a HA guy with much z-wave specific experience. I didn't think installing switches required any specialized skill. 
 
Are you saying you ran USB cable throughout the house? I never even considered this but I guess I can see the applications. Didn't think USB was possible over such long runs or that USB cable that long was available. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions…
 
As far as audio I don't listen to MP3's or radio (streaming/satellite/OTA) very much. Just about everything I listen to these days is from an online music sevice; currently it's Google Play Music and Songza but that can change at any time. Control4 has a cool music bridge that will let you play anything coming out of an Android device regardless of source. I must have something that gives me this much flexibility. Is that possible with Russound or any platform other than Control4? Hmmm… I suppose all these music apps can run from a browser so I could use a PC/Mac as the source. I trust any music distribution platform can use a computer as the source? But that seems like overkill.
 
I don't think I can get rid of bluray players. I have so much physical media and I have neither the time or patience to rip all that stuff. Plus it makes it impossible to immediately watch purchased movies. So I need to either have a centrally distributed bluray player or I need local players wherever I might watch movies.
 
As for MythTV, I hadn't considered that but the built in tuners can't be used for DirecTV. I assume you have to use Hauppauge HD PVR to record the HD content to the Myth. But then you need a Hauppauge and DirecTV receiver for each channel you want to simultaneously record. So how is this better/cheaper than using DirecTV Genie hardwired to each room? Or am I missing something here? Also, how do you get live pay TV to each room? Can Myth stream live pay TV too? If you have speaker separates how do you get audio from Myth to each room?
 
There are going to be more than ten TV's around the house. This is the piece of the puzzle that has me stumped. How do I get live & recorded pay TV to all these rooms? And how do I get amplified audio to the speakers in these rooms? This is where I feel like Control 4 is my easiest and possibly cheapest option. I would love to figure out a cheaper/better way.
 

dgage said:

Welcome.  I too went through some of that.  After looking at Insteon, Zwave, UPB, and others, I ended up with Lutron RadioRa2 for my lighting, which is on the upper-end of the spectrum.  The reason I chose RadioRa2 was that it was elegant and 100% reliable.  By elegant I mean that the switches and keypads are so much nicer than anything made for Zwave or UPB in my opinion.  Regarding the ability to do it yourself, you need to take a short online training and then you have access to the software that allows you to have 100 devices.  The RadioRa2 software supports up to 200 devices but to get that software, you'd have to attend a 2-day(or 3?) training session at a Lutron location.
 
For automation, I use the CQC software since the only automation provided by the Lutron software is to turn on/off lights at a certain time.
 
One thing I will say about home automation, especially if you come from a technical background is that home automation is not about technology, it is about reliability.  This is why you have systems like the HAI OmniPro and Elk that are...frankly...old.  They are usually 100% reliable so there is that but don't expect anything new to be added quickly.  This was something that frustrated me greatly and sometimes still does.  The other thing to get used to is that just about everything is custom and usually different devices don't talk to each unless you go with something like Control4.
 
Welcome and good luck.

Click to expand...

 
Are you saying that unless I use something else to control the Lutron I won't be able to do anything other than on/off? The Radiora2 is the one thing I've had multiple HA guys suggest so it has my attention. But I didn't realize it was so limited.
 
How hard is CQC to learn? It sounds powerful but doesn't sound like something you can use right out of the box. I'm also weary of anything that runs on a PC. You say home automation is about reliability and I don't consider anything that runs on Windows to be reliable — at least not without having a regular reboot schedule.
 

Work2Play said:

Welcome!  I think more people will see your post than you'd expect - I think a lot of us kinda of ignore the different sub-forums and just look at anything new.
 
Walls open is really the time to get the wiring in - you don't necessarily have to get everything right for picking lighting technologies - hell, throw in regular switches and come back - unless you're going with a hardwired lighting solution (for which there's no real need) then come back; or if you can decide which technology you want, you can have a regular ol' electrician install them as basic switches, then you can program them later if you want. 
 
The main thing to do while the walls are open is to get any wiring in place you could possibly need - luckily these days just about anything can run over Cat5 (at least for media distribution) so honestly I'd suggest focusing your efforts there and back off trying to figure out every technology choice. 
 
That said there's a primer on UPB in my signature - it's a little old but I have ~65 UPB switches working flawlessly and they've been great to have in place as I've moved to LED lighting - no issues at all, especially with the CREE bulbs.  There's even a couple places where I had ballasted fluorescent fixtures that I've converted over - 10 seconds in the software and dimming was enabled and fade rates adjusted.  I'm still quite happy with the solution and would probably do it again if I were building new right now.

Click to expand...

 
"Regular" LED dimmers and installation all over the house is not going to be cheap. I'd rather not install basic ones now and then go through and do the whole thing all over again because I'll have to hire someone in a matter of weeks and it's a big waste of money. As you said, as you suggested my goal is to figure out what technology I'm going to use then the programming can happen later.
 
I also don't know how much cable to run to each TV location. As I mentioned before someone suggested five Cat5/6 cables to each location which sounded overboard but maybe not. But I'm thinking running plain old coax might not be a bad idea in case I ever want to fall back to a basic cable/sat setup (opposite of future-proofing) and if I understand @pete_c right maybe even USB. Oh boy…

uscpsycho said:

Are you saying that unless I use something else to control the Lutron I won't be able to do anything other than on/off? The Radiora2 is the one thing I've had multiple HA guys suggest so it has my attention. But I didn't realize it was so limited.

 
How hard is CQC to learn? It sounds powerful but doesn't sound like something you can use right out of the box. I'm also weary of anything that runs on a PC. You say home automation is about reliability and I don't consider anything that runs on Windows to be reliable — at least not without having a regular reboot schedule.

Click to expand...

 
The RadioRa2 system is a lighting system, not a home automation system.  The software is intended for setup of the lighting and the primary "automation" you can do is setup lights to come on/off via a timer (9pm, sunset, sunrise) or by a RadioRa2 motion sensor.  I can't think of any other automation you could do with the software but there may be 1 or 2 other tricks but it wouldn't be much.  As a lighting system it has been absolutely rock solid.  If professionals are recommending it, they are probably going to bring a home automation package to bear such as Control4 or similar. 
 
In my opinion CQC is fairly difficult to learn and even if you are fairly technical, it would take some time getting used to CQC as it has its own scripting language.  If you were to take it a little at a time or if you are pretty technical then it might be a little faster for you.  Dean is the creator of CQC and gives great support and there are many other users on the CQC forum that share knowledge and are very helpful.
 
Now regarding Windows, I first must preface that I work as a consultant for the company that makes said OS.  With that said, I don't think that thought process applies to Windows anymore.  I have a Windows Home Server 2008 that is currently hosting CQC and it has been rock solid and I've had to do almost nothing to it since I installed it 5 or 6 years ago.  And I also have a Windows 7 machine that until recently was running my whole home cable television (switched to Tivo Roamio) and it was rock solid. It was also running CQC in a VM for a while too until it was suggested I split out CQC to physical hardware (really wasn't needed though).  And I had a Windows 7 machine before I upgraded the system that ran my cable TV for several years before that.  Every once in a while I would install updates and it might require a reboot but I did that every 1-3 months depending when I felt like it.  The idea of needing to reboot every couple of weeks or even months...nope, haven't needed it.  And Windows 8 is even more stable than Windows 7. 
 
And this is an aside but related to the previous paragraph.  I recently tried a Galaxy Note 3 as I was tired of Windows Phone 8 being behind in apps.  Well, I didn't like it...I thought the apps weren't as good on Android as they are on iOS as I have an iPad 3.  So I took back the Galaxy Note 3 and bought a Lumia 1520 (phablet) and love it.  I couldn't recommend Windows Phone until I lived with Android for a few weeks.  The interesting thing is the Windows Phone has never once needed to be rebooted while Android and the iPad are much less stable.  My friend's iPhone 5S crashes constantly and I can't remember when my previous Lumia 920 crashed and definitely haven't seen any crashes in the last month on my 1520.  I just put that out there that MS is putting out some solid operating systems...if they would only stop pissing people off with the interface.

This is a fun thread - and I don't mean that sarcastically.  Slightly OT, but to dgage - iOS was rock solid until 7, at least for me - I've had nothing but problems since though.  Have to wonder how much it has to do with the big shakeup between losing Jobs and changing who's in charge of UI and dev...  I also recently bought a MS phone just as a toy (not activated even) and I think they have some great ideas implemented.  Android just never made all that much sense to me and seems to require customization to even make it useful where the other OSs, you might rearrange your icons and set your background, but you don't have to invest much time in them (please don't start a flame war - no need here). 
 
Also on the topic of HA PC's - Any OS can be more or less stable depending on your knowledge.  I know Windows really well - I'm an old MCSE; I also started using Macs for my personal laptop about 6 years ago because they were ahead of the curve on usability (my laptop is Mac, the machine at my Desk is a PC w/triple screens); I also run a few Linux machines but I'm not as good with it.  In my case, I can make a bulletproof Windows PC in very little time that'll run until the power gives out or something fails... Same with OSX generally though I'm not as intimately familiar with the inner workings; Linux I'm not that great with so I could easily overlook a big vulnerability and be worse off than a poorly patched Windows machine.  It all depends on skill level.  That said, far more people know Windows, and therefore more controllers and software run on Windows than anything else (you'd be surprised how many critical things like hospital systems; bank ATM's, kiosks, etc all run on Windows Embedded or a similarly locked down version).  As long as you're not letting your kids browse facebook from your home automation system and you turn off automatic everything, you should have a system that never give you any surprised.  I too have been running WHS for a long time now and only recently started having trouble because the hard drives are failing causing lockups - but that'd happen on any OS.  Point is, don't pigeonhole your OS decision until you've chosen the most viable software platform, should you choose that route.
 
On to lighting - I wouldn't suggest spending $50/dimmer on dumb dimmers - I was thinking more like the $1 switches if you're not ready for that final decision.  If you are, then even better.  They often do install a little bit differently than your traditional switches - most significantly in any 3 or 4 way circuits... but with a little extra labor time, Sparky should be able to figure it out by reading the instructions.  Just don't expect him to know programming.  Also with lighting - with any of the lighting systems, they are basically standalone as installed until some sort of controller comes into play; so with a RadioRA2 or UPB or ZWave system - you can program one switch to control another; dim, on/off, etc - without anything external - but when you want lights on by time of day, or to have your lights turn on/off with the security system, or as the movie starts, that's where a central controller comes in.
 
Wiring - I don't think Pete meant to wire USB, though I'd have to reread... if you want USB or RS232 control remotely, there's always a way to do it over IP - and quite often with direct extenders over Cat5e - in fact, just about anything can be extended over Cat5e provided you have enough runs.  If you had only 1 run, you might need a switch then cables to the TV, Bluray, Fire TV, etc; as well as maybe an RS232 over IP or USB over IP device (specifically, maybe a GlobalCache that has a few serial ports for direct RS232 control of an AV Receiver, TV, and Bluray player).  Of course plan for the future too - so run a few Cat5e's or greater; run at least 2 coax to primary-location TV's (MBR, Livingroom, Theater) and if you can, leave an empty smurf tube that you can pull extra wire into; run any HDMI that you know you need too from the equipment location to a projector or TV mount location.
 
Your 10 TV's do pose some challenges - because either you need 1) an expensive matrixer, 2) multiples of all your components anywhere you'd want each potential source (along with the monthly cost of each DTV receiver), or 3) to live with very limited sources at many of these locations.  Honestly a good matrixer is the way to go, but you're talking $8-22K for that matrixer depending on number of sources and zones (you can reduce zones my doubling up - so one Zone is split to the bedroom and bathroom, for example; and one for the kitchen and adjacent family room).
 
If Control4 or others fit your budget, then go for it - it's a great solution... but I wouldn't be shocked if you get a proposal upwards of the $50K realm.  That's why only you can decide if you want to pay for it all from an integrator, or DIY it as you have time and money.  Plenty of people here are happy to help with suggestions either way and won't fault you for either.
 
And last thing - yes you can often stream straight from your phone to whatever... you usually don't get the metadata on your touchscreens though.  With Apple you can do Airplay and with Android I understand there are a couple specific flavors depending on the device; all can do Bluetooth too but bluetooth audio quality is abysmal.  Airplay-type solutions are nice because range is dictated by your wifi network, not bluetooth range - and with a UniFi system, range could literally be several square miles.

Is it necessary to find an electrician with z-wave-specific experience? I don't think I'm going to find that since I can't even find a HA guy with much z-wave specific experience. I didn't think installing switches required any specialized skill.

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The instructions for most automated switches are standard and made for an electrician to comprehend.  That said any automated switch is unique from a standard electrical switch and not something that an electrician is used to working with.  Personally I would read the instructions physically looking at an automated switch such that you understand what wires are used for what.  Then pass that instruction sheet over to your electrician with a switch and ask him to explain to you methodologies he will utilize to install switch; see personally that he is understanding methodologies in the written instruction sheet.
 
Run the software to program the switch; get familiar with it and decide whether you want to show your electrician how to program the switches and pay for his time doing said endeavor or DIY it yourself.
 
The whole automation switch world is unique. 
 
The best knowledge base resource installation person would be a master electrician who also is a do anything on any computer type of person and can articulate in both worlds seamlessly.
 
The above noted be prepared to pay for said expertise/knowledge base individual more than a base electrician rate.  (move the bar from $50 a switch to $100 a switch total installation cost or even better set up a rate per hour that you think is fair).
 

Are you saying you ran USB cable throughout the house? I never even considered this but I guess I can see the applications. Didn't think USB was possible over such long runs or that USB cable that long was available. I guess I shouldn't make assumptions…

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No I do not have USB cable all over the house.  I do have cat5e all over the house.  I have extended RS-232 all over the house using the cat5e.  I have tested extending USB and not ever had really good luck with it.  That said I do extend USB with Digi Anywhere USB / Lantronix USB to network devices.  While I think that wireless transport between switches is a neato idea; I prefer a wired topology for HV switches; yup even using the powerline itself as a means for transport.
 
Personally do not think that the folks designing the automation "wireless" network had any clues in general about basic networking topologies. Really all they cared about was whether the light turned on or off; which does work. The introduction of wireless battery powered automation devices doesn't make it better.  RF is magical and it cannot be controlled like a simple direct wire. It is convenient and inexpensive.  That is my personal opinion though.
 
Every TV today does have RG-6 and Cat5E jacks.  I utilize the RG-6 today for OTA / inhouse video and Cat5e for the XBMC boxes.  Thinking that all my LCD TV's today still have NTSC tuners and ATSC tuners as I watch both on them all.  The XBMC box is just network connected and it can control the MythTV DVR, play live video streaming (with the pause and playback and rewind functions of live TV) or run any of the multitude of online streaming whatever.  I do also have one Wintel box running with multiple subbed paid on demand services (netflix et al) which also can be streaming on any TV, tablet or PC in the house. (easier to keep it all on one box).
 

As far as audio I don't listen to MP3's or radio (streaming/satellite/OTA) very much. Just about everything I listen to these days is from an online music sevice; currently it's Google Play Music and Songza but that can change at any time. Control4 has a cool music bridge that will let you play anything coming out of an Android device regardless of source. I must have something that gives me this much flexibility. Is that possible with Russound or any platform other than Control4? Hmmm… I suppose all these music apps can run from a browser so I could use a PC/Mac as the source. I trust any music distribution platform can use a computer as the source? But that seems like overkill.

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I am distributing audio via zoned amplifiers (Russound) using in wall speakers connected to speaker wires and controlled via cat5 connected whatever  While I do utilize online streaming; mostly enjoy my personal music collection.  Many folks today are doing a wireless zoned audio system; relatively inexpensive and sort of portable; cute speakers.  Thinking most of the costs related to the wireless technology; and less on the value of the hardware which is truly cheap these days.  Sound is sound is sound whatever your space permeates of it.  IE: wife watches her recorded video content based on content and not the quality of the sound or video.
 
I have customized my touch screens with whatever streaming or local playback of audio that I want.  Its really up to your imagination.  There are many discussions here relating to methodology of source, propietary software and different OS's running.  I have been playing with the legacy Squeezebox, have one Squeezebox server running alongside my MythTV box playing back audio on customized SqueezeBox OS touchscreens; remote controllable by the mothership (home automation server).
 
I am so much addicted to my personal music that I have my music collection replicated in two cars on computers(even though I have satellite radio, internet streaming et al).  Relating to music servers which stream from the internet or do whatever; your choices are endless these days with whatever OS you want to use.  (IE: Wintel, MAC, Linux or embedded Linux).  I don't really think one is better than another.  Some have more features while other applications have less.
 

As for MythTV, I hadn't considered that but the built in tuners can't be used for DirecTV. I assume you have to use Hauppauge HD PVR to record the HD content to the Myth. But then you need a Hauppauge and DirecTV receiver for each channel you want to simultaneously record. So how is this better/cheaper than using DirecTV Genie hardwired to each room? Or am I missing something here? Also, how do you get live pay TV to each room? Can Myth stream live pay TV too? If you have speaker separates how do you get audio from Myth to each room?

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Yup the MythTV box is talking to multiple tuners and do multiple / simultaneous recordings and viewing.  It is a free DIY.  I also have DirectTV (20 years now) and recently gave up my personally owned Tivo DVRs (forced by DTV). I also redistribute video back to the house on private channels which feed the LCD TVs such that you can watch and control whatever content you record or watch with DTV.  That said I personally do not watch TV.  
 

There are going to be more than ten TV's around the house. This is the piece of the puzzle that has me stumped. How do I get live & recorded pay TV to all these rooms? And how do I get amplified audio to the speakers in these rooms? This is where I feel like Control 4 is my easiest and possibly cheapest option. I would love to figure out a cheaper/better way.

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Yup; utilize DirectTV, Comcast, OTA and in house video.  It goes to any of the TV's in the house.  Using the MythTV box and the DirectTV box to record.  Control of live and recorded video playback is only on the XBMC boxes all connected wired to the network.  Audio / video is SD or HD and stereo or multichannel.  I do have additional multimedia receivers by certain LCD TVs.  Footprints are small.  No DVD/Blue ray players are used anymore. 
 
Personally here looking towards moving (well doing it now) my automation to Linux after running it for many years on Wintel.  I have historically always liked the embedded automation on my legacy and currently a bit stifled Leviton HAI OmniPro II panel.  I am now in the mode to integrate said automation in my own DIY devices using Linux.  My currently running Linux OS automation can have unlimited (literally) wired serial and USB devices and virtual devices connected to whatever it is I want to automate (IE today > 20 analog devices managed by the automation software doing all sorts of things in events, internet, lighting, temperature).  That said I personally consider the automation server the "mothership" which maintains the heartbeat of the home; sans any interaction by me.  I did that whole remote control with my cell phone thing in the late 1990's and early 2000's.  I had fun with it remote controlling my home from the EU while sitting having coffee on the Champs-Élysées and bugging my wife on my mobile phone.  I did also use the Text to speech (into various voice fonts) and VR in the late 1990's (started to play though with it in the early 80's with TTS built into my security / automation (well X10) panel.  Still utilize multiple language multiple speech fonts these days; cuz its fun.  The remote pieces got old fast.  The interface today to the automation mothership can be my phone, tablet or any device which runs a browser.
 
That said everything is automatic and I do watch but do not interact too much with it these days.  My automation is home based not reliant on the internet.  I do utilize the internet but am not dependent on it for anything related to automation.  Social media got me in trouble in the 1990's; a "mi casa is su casa" invite got a 23 year old drop in staying a couple of weeks playing tourist in Chicago.  She was/is a radio DJ today for the BBC and she was visiting south america; then dropped by Chicago for a few days.
 
She was pleasant but wife did get upset a bit.
 
I do today have wired touchscreens connected to the automation in just about every room of the house.
 
The forum here does mostly entertain the DIY automation or security person.  Read the FAQ adventures and look at the pictuers of the DIY automation person. Mostly everyone here has been there and done that and is looking to that.
 
You can purchase an off the shelf automation system today at the big box stores or go full "tilt" with a Control 4 system (or whatever high end systems are out there today) professionally installed at a cost (including monthly support).  Its really up to you what exactly is your budget and what you want to spend per month on your entertainment. (neighbor here is at about $400 per month in a BB bill not including pay per services on the internet like music, streaming video, et al). 

I've got RA2 lighting controls throughout the new house.  They work reliably 100% of the time.  I've had my share of alternatives over the years and I cannot recommend anything other than the Lutron stuff.  Do not underestimate the reliability factor.
 
We just built a new house and spent the last 6 months living in it.  My advice is think long and hard about how you REALLY envision living in the space and who's going to be using the stuff that gets installed.
 
We deliberately postponed installing the speakers.  We did pre-wire for them (took measurements on the floor using a laser).  But now that we've been in the house for a while we may not make use of all the places that were pre-wired.  Fortunately wiring is relatively cheap.  It'll just go unused in a number of places.  If/when I want to bring audio to those spaces I need only use the laser level to find the x/y spot on the floor and cut the holes above.
 
For lighting it's VERY convenient having a paddle style switch as the first one on the box when you enter the room.  This allows easy access for immediate lighting.  Using a keypad for this requires looking at it first.  
 
We had one location where we couldn't get a 3-gang box installed and went with a keypad (along with a fan control).  I regret this.  At some point I'm going to move the fan control to a hidden location, and put a paddle switch in for the main lighting.  I can use the keypad's buttons to trigger fan operation (along with the other lighting on it).  
 
As for what kind of other low voltage wiring, I've got 2 RG6 and 3 CAT5E lines running to just about all likely locations that might ever get gear connected.  I've got mine into a double-gang box shared with AC power.  I would not do this again.  The single-gang left for the low voltage stuff gets a little tight trying to get everything connected when it's on an outside (foam insulated) wall.  
 
For anywhere that's going to get a TV I strongly suggest you run at least five CAT5/6 lines.  Because while you might only need one for actual wired networking (using a local network switch for the other devices) there are other systems than can use the CAT5 wiring.  Distributed audio, video, IR, etc, can all usually be adapted to use CAT5 wiring.  Having more pairs never, ever hurts for TV locations.  
 
Oh, I could go on...  but my most important advice is BE REALISTIC about how you and everyone in the house WILL make use of these systems.  if you try taking things too far into the fringe territories of 'over automated' you'll just aggravate everyone.  

t's been several weeks since I posted and in that time I've decided to go with RTI or Control4 for my automation system. I've narrowed it down to three integrators and hope to make a decision soon. The thought of being dependent on a integrator makes my skin crawl but the scope of the project necessitates it. As does the timing.
 

dgage said:

Welcome.  I too went through some of that.  After looking at Insteon, Zwave, UPB, and others, I ended up with Lutron RadioRa2 for my lighting, which is on the upper-end of the spectrum.  The reason I chose RadioRa2 was that it was elegant and 100% reliable.  By elegant I mean that the switches and keypads are so much nicer than anything made for Zwave or UPB in my opinion.  Regarding the ability to do it yourself, you need to take a short online training and then you have access to the software that allows you to have 100 devices.  The RadioRa2 software supports up to 200 devices but to get that software, you'd have to attend a 2-day(or 3?) training session at a Lutron location.
 
For automation, I use the CQC software since the only automation provided by the Lutron software is to turn on/off lights at a certain time.
 
One thing I will say about home automation, especially if you come from a technical background is that home automation is not about technology, it is about reliability.  This is why you have systems like the HAI OmniPro and Elk that are...frankly...old.  They are usually 100% reliable so there is that but don't expect anything new to be added quickly.  This was something that frustrated me greatly and sometimes still does.  The other thing to get used to is that just about everything is custom and usually different devices don't talk to each unless you go with something like Control4.
 
Welcome and good luck.

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I mentioned before that several of the integrators I talked to suggested Lutron Radio RA2 for lighting control. All but the Control4 guy I'm considering, he wants to use Control4 for lighting. This is a very specific question so maybe I should start a new thread but what do you guys think of Radio RA2 vs Control4 for lighting? Cost? Reliability? Performance? Capabilities? Sounds like Lutron has the advantage of being able to program it myself which the Control4 guy may not be crazy about.
 
 

wkearney99 said:

I've got RA2 lighting controls throughout the new house.  They work reliably 100% of the time.  I've had my share of alternatives over the years and I cannot recommend anything other than the Lutron stuff.  Do not underestimate the reliability factor.
 
We just built a new house and spent the last 6 months living in it.  My advice is think long and hard about how you REALLY envision living in the space and who's going to be using the stuff that gets installed.
 
We deliberately postponed installing the speakers.  We did pre-wire for them (took measurements on the floor using a laser).  But now that we've been in the house for a while we may not make use of all the places that were pre-wired.  Fortunately wiring is relatively cheap.  It'll just go unused in a number of places.  If/when I want to bring audio to those spaces I need only use the laser level to find the x/y spot on the floor and cut the holes above.
 
For lighting it's VERY convenient having a paddle style switch as the first one on the box when you enter the room.  This allows easy access for immediate lighting.  Using a keypad for this requires looking at it first.  
 
We had one location where we couldn't get a 3-gang box installed and went with a keypad (along with a fan control).  I regret this.  At some point I'm going to move the fan control to a hidden location, and put a paddle switch in for the main lighting.  I can use the keypad's buttons to trigger fan operation (along with the other lighting on it).  
 
As for what kind of other low voltage wiring, I've got 2 RG6 and 3 CAT5E lines running to just about all likely locations that might ever get gear connected.  I've got mine into a double-gang box shared with AC power.  I would not do this again.  The single-gang left for the low voltage stuff gets a little tight trying to get everything connected when it's on an outside (foam insulated) wall.  
 
For anywhere that's going to get a TV I strongly suggest you run at least five CAT5/6 lines.  Because while you might only need one for actual wired networking (using a local network switch for the other devices) there are other systems than can use the CAT5 wiring.  Distributed audio, video, IR, etc, can all usually be adapted to use CAT5 wiring.  Having more pairs never, ever hurts for TV locations.  
 
Oh, I could go on...  but my most important advice is BE REALISTIC about how you and everyone in the house WILL make use of these systems.  if you try taking things too far into the fringe territories of 'over automated' you'll just aggravate everyone.  

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This is really practical advice. I actually got into a debate with the Control4 guy about having traditional light switches everywhere I have a keypad. I let him convince me to have keypads only but reading this convinces me that I was right. Are you talking about plain old dumb paddle switches? Would you feel the same way if it was a dimmer rather than a paddle?
 

pete_c said:

Yup; utilize DirectTV, Comcast, OTA and in house video.  It goes to any of the TV's in the house.  Using the MythTV box and the DirectTV box to record.  Control of live and recorded video playback is only on the XBMC boxes all connected wired to the network.  Audio / video is SD or HD and stereo or multichannel.  I do have additional multimedia receivers by certain LCD TVs.  Footprints are small.  No DVD/Blue ray players are used anymore.  

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Very curious how you are distributing DirecTV throughout the house using MythTV. How do you get live/recorded programming from the DTV box to other rooms? And how do you remotely control the DTV box? I have a situation where I'm planning to have four DTV boxes and 13 TV's. I need to be able to watch any of the DTV boxes (live or recorded shows) from any TV. How do I accomplish this with MythTV? If I can eliminate the hdbaset matrix that will save me a considerable amount of money.

Very curious how you are distributing DirecTV throughout the house using MythTV. How do you get live/recorded programming from the DTV box to other rooms? And how do you remotely control the DTV box? I have a situation where I'm planning to have four DTV boxes and 13 TV's. I need to be able to watch any of the DTV boxes (live or recorded shows) from any TV. How do I accomplish this with MythTV? If I can eliminate the hdbaset matrix that will save me a considerable amount of money.

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Its kind of a blend here and a bit antiquated. 
 
We have DirecTV here for the wife (well now for some 20 years).  Such that there are still today STB's wherever she watches DTV.
 
We had to do a forced migration from DTivo a couple of years ago.  That said it was almost a traumatic experience for her to get used to using the DTV DVR. 
 
Today I back channel feed the DTV stuff (for wife) back to the house broadband on one channel.  The MythTV box is independent and running with multiple tuners doing its own thing.  The "STB"'s for the MythTV box are little Aopen Digital Engines by each TV.   The backfeed stuff from the above goes into one of MythTV tuners.  I do have IR blasters running between rooms using the RG6 cables (this has always been around).  MythTV does the HD stuff and the backfeed stuff is only SD. If you are just using DTV you will most likely need to go to their methodologies. 
 
HD is only distributed via the XBMC boxes connected / MythTV via a Gb switch.
 
I do have small commercial cable TV channel "injectors" somewhere here; haven't used them in while (rack mounted) but they are only for SD and not HD and would allow more channels (I used to use these a while ago)
 
The web TV services box does all the internet sub stuff (netflix, amazon et al) which is picked up directly by the MythTV box. 
 
There is only test rapidrun HD cables configured in the house but not really used for anything but a few rooms.  (lost interest a while ago in doing this).
 
Personally I am not a TV watcher and prefer an evening watching one movie.  Wife is a remote channel changer of live TV and lately whatever is recorded. 
 
Not really sure if the above helps you much.  The above noted; house broadcast live TV is not single source service dependent; never have been.
 
BTW and personally if you are not into this sort of stuff; then I would just do the Control4 Television stuff.
 
http://www.control4.com/documentation/System_User_Guide/Television.htm
 
We have a friend who purchased a contractor spec home using Control4 many years ago.  She did have issues with it initially which dinged her automation efforts (she is not technical).  That said over the years all of her stuff has been updated and I think she is happy today with it.  (it is a multimillion dollar home and she has LCD TV's everywhere - IE: media / rec room / entertainment area has some 6 LCD TVs in it). 
 
A bit bored yesterday played a bit with an internet TV application which let me travel the world (in a virtual sense) looking at TV broadcasts on the internet.  I wanted to see what kind of advertising, weather forcasting and TV shows were being streamed by the media.  IE: tuning into the Vatican local TV channels they were playing "Happy Days" shows in Italian. 

uscpsycho said:

t's been several weeks since I posted and in that time I've decided to go with RTI or Control4 for my automation system. I've narrowed it down to three integrators and hope to make a decision soon. The thought of being dependent on a integrator makes my skin crawl but the scope of the project necessitates it. As does the timing.
 
 
I mentioned before that several of the integrators I talked to suggested Lutron Radio RA2 for lighting control. All but the Control4 guy I'm considering, he wants to use Control4 for lighting. This is a very specific question so maybe I should start a new thread but what do you guys think of Radio RA2 vs Control4 for lighting? Cost? Reliability? Performance? Capabilities? Sounds like Lutron has the advantage of being able to program it myself which the Control4 guy may not be crazy about.
 
This is really practical advice. I actually got into a debate with the Control4 guy about having traditional light switches everywhere I have a keypad. I let him convince me to have keypads only but reading this convinces me that I was right. Are you talking about plain old dumb paddle switches? Would you feel the same way if it was a dimmer rather than a paddle?
 
 
Very curious how you are distributing DirecTV throughout the house using MythTV. How do you get live/recorded programming from the DTV box to other rooms? And how do you remotely control the DTV box? I have a situation where I'm planning to have four DTV boxes and 13 TV's. I need to be able to watch any of the DTV boxes (live or recorded shows) from any TV. How do I accomplish this with MythTV? If I can eliminate the hdbaset matrix that will save me a considerable amount of money.

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I've heard plenty of negative things about Control4's light switches being unreliable.  I think most folks will agree, Lutron's are rock-solid reliable.  I've had Control4 folks suggest using RA2 lighting instead.  Most systems can control RA2, so it's not an interoperability situation.  You'd need, of course, an integrator that's already authorized for both Control4 and Lutron.  
 
I still fall back on the foundation of at least one clearly positioned traditional switch for the room's "main lighting".  I'd rather have a 2-gang box with a paddle and a keypad rather than a keypad alone.  Also note, as things get more sophisticated you chew through keypad buttons pretty quick.  I've a rec room with a four gang box with 3 dimmers and a 6-button keypad and, honestly, it could use another keypad.  But the usability of that would suck.  
 
There's the balance between keypads as toggles for lights vs scenes.  And it's hard to gauge just how much of which you're going to end up needing for a brand new space.  Sure, it seems clever to have 'scenes' for stuff but it's a lot harder to plan those out than you might expect.  At least not for daily use rooms.  For a dining room or a theater it's a lot easier to plan.  But for a space that sees a lot of different activities like a family room/kitchen it's not as simple.
 
Here's a point worth considering, a lot of integrators don't live in the kind of houses they're consulting to install.  Think about that.  No amount of vendor training is going to give you enough experience to grasp how to automate someone else's lifestyle.  Do you want to be paying $$$/hour to have them learn how you live?  So make sure your integrator has references from current customers who live in a house like yours and live in it in similar fashion.  Don't just accept the bullshit of having automated some sports player or other celebrity's house.  Because jobs like that are more of a gravy train for the integrator than anything resembling a real-world comparison to your own life.
 
We may well use a Control4 setup for our theater when we do it this Fall.  Their on-screen and remote integration has a very high WAF score.  Sure, it ain't cheap, but if the wife's happy and doesn't have to nag me to set things up then it's money well-spent.
 
As for TVs and distributed sources... sigh... that's perhaps fodder for a whole other thread.  Initially you think you want to be clever and do something like have only X number of sources to be distributed and controlled from X+ number of TVs.  Then you realize the WAF for such a setup just completely SUCKS.  Who's using which sources, on what TVs, for how long, etc...  Ugh, it's a mess. 
 
Let's step back and identify which of the TVs would truly benefit from having their own sources.  Bite the bullet on what it takes to make that happen (space for the gear, remote repeaters, whatever) and the monthly subscriptions.  Then look at how the others would get used.  We've been reasonably pleased using a 4-tuner Tivo as the host for a Tivo Mini client on a TV.  The Mini needs only a network connection, neatly eliminating a lot of hassles trying to matrix and control the source.  Guests get a predictable, factory remote (not a customized one), ability to watch live TV, a guide they can surf and ability to stream from various sources.  I get headache reduction. Win-win.  So focus on what those other TVs actually "need" to be able to do.