Gen1 vs. Gen2 vs. Gen3 UPB

I've been using UPB ever since it came out using mostly Simply Automated Gen1 switches.  I've always had some signal problems getting to the opposite phase, and I have three phase-couplers installed.  
 
About a year ago I installed a PCS split-phase coupler which worked great, but only with newer Web Mountain Gen2 switches, and not my older Gen1 Simply Automated switches. 
 
I'm getting a new house so want to use the repeater from the start.  So I called Simply Automated, and they say they think their more recent switches DO work with the PCS repeater.  Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?  Is Gen2 required to use the repeater?
 
For those that don't know, if you use a repeater with older Gen1 switches on the OPPOSITE phase, the repeater does repeat the signal to the switch BUT it DOESN'T reply the reply from the switch to UPSTART, and thus, you can't program the switches. Anyone fully understand this UPB Gen1 vs. Gen2 thing? 

While I have a hodgepodge of UPB switches all of the newer ones are SA. 
 
The newer SA UPB switches are about 2 years old now.   All of the newer ones were dual load and multipaddle switches.
 
I have an HAI UPB repeater in place and had no issues programming the additional newer switches 2 years ago.
 
The new UPB SA switches are on the two phases. 

Some info in Work2Play's guide
http://cocoontech.com/forums/page/articles/_/guides/home-automation-guides/automating-your-home-with-upb-r378

Some info at the bottom of this page
http://www.simply-automated.com/faq/technology.php

Essentially SA made the Gen II software improvements without turning down the sensitivity settings from Gen I.
As I understand it.
Gen I switches are more responsive to weak signals, which improves reliability, but may be more affected by noise on the line (which is why the Gen II switches were de-sensitized).

I have almost all SA switches (70+) with various versions of firmware from 2007 to more recent. I even have two old US11-30 switches.
I use the SA breaker box couplers/repeaters with no problems in comms.

I seem to remember reading about your comms problems before.

Thanks. That helpful. I got a great letter back from Web Mountain explaining the differences. Basically PCS was coming across some cases of noise problems with some early Gen1 switchs installations, so they created the Gen2 firmware to combat these noise problems. PCS made the new Gen2 changes available to their licensees, but it required changes to their license agreements. Web Mountain and HAI agreed to the changes but Simply Automated did not.  SA felt the changes hurt for some cases of low noise conditions, and for high noise conditions, they recommended adding a noise filter.  PCS and the others felt the changes did help and they wanted to get around adding filters.  Simply Automated claims the Gen2 changes only help you IF you are using a repeater, BUT here is a very interesting point Web Mountain pointed out. Repeater support has NOTHING to do with Gen1 or Gen2. Repeater support was quietly added a few years ago by everyone, including SA. 
 
I have had bad noise problems and heard of others (Panasonic Inverter Microwave, Lutron Radio Ra devices, Pentair Intelliflow) and they can be bad.  But I have also had weak signal problems between phases, which is more common than noise, in my experience. Couplers can help, but a repeater is so so much better.
 
I love UPB, its so flexible, but I really wish the companies making UPB products could work together a bit more and be more transparent on firmware upgrades.  I wish they could also standardize on what colors their LEDs are. That is annoying as well.

Two questions regarding use of a repeater (as opposed to a coupler):
 
1. Is there something obvious when viewing the settings of a device in UpStart that will tell you if a device will work with a repeater?
 
2. Are there certain settings that must be made in a device (using UpStart) to make it work with a repeater?
 
Thanks!

Frederick C. Wilt said:

Two questions regarding use of a repeater (as opposed to a coupler):
 
1. Is there something obvious when viewing the settings of a device in UpStart that will tell you if a device will work with a repeater?
 
2. Are there certain settings that must be made in a device (using UpStart) to make it work with a repeater?
 
Thanks!

Click to expand...

UpStart does have a setting telling it if you do or dont have a repeater and even a setting to automatically check if a repeater is present. Then when you do signal test in UpStart, if you do have a repeater, you get extra signal strengths to and from the repeater. (It is called "Repeater Signal Strength" in UpStart.)  In UpStart look under "Tools" and then "Options" for the repeater setup. All the data is very helpful and its very well implemented in UpStart. 
 
I have not seen any changes in the device itself when you have a repeater.
 
Now the first question, does UpStart tell you if a device will work with a repeater?  Nothing that I have seen, but you can tell when a device is on the OPPOSITE phase compared to the PIM Phase. If the device DOESN'T support a repeater, it will receive commands from UpStart, but it will not see replys from the device.
 
So what this means is with devices that DON'T support a repeater, you have to remove the repeater and use a coupler to program a device. After its programmed, you can put the repeater back, and the switch will act correctly, but you can't get status back. Without a repeater I have about 95% reliablity. With the repeater its 99.999%
 
Simply Automated claims their more recent devices work with a repeater, so I bought one to test. I really like the Simply Automated switches, but I really want to use the repeater. The only problem I've had with the older Simply Automated switches is the switch contacts seem to wear out in areas with heavy use. I've replaced 2 or 3 in 10 years. Not bad.

Thank you for that information.
 
One thing that perhaps should be mentioned for folks reading this is that couplers come in two types, inverting and non-inverting. 
 
In my home I tested both types and the non-inverting type worked much better - don't ask me why - they just did. In fact the inverting ones made things worse.
 
So if you are using couplers and they don't seem to help you may need to try the other type.
 
But a repeater is better if they work with your devices.

Thank-you Ano.
 
Here initially started with PCS, SA and HAI UPB switches. 
 
The very first HAI PIM connected to the OPII panel was defective which caused me a bit of grief. 
 
I didn't have any sort of signal issues for a while (few years).  One day signal issues cropped up.
 
I tried the PCS & SA couplers which didn't help me much.  That said I did not know about the non-inverting / inverting types of couplers.
 
I purchased an HAI repeater and my signal issues subsided.  Two years ago updated the rest of the automated switches to SA (still adding about 2-3 PCS switches) and I see no signal issues to date.

I have only had one noise issue in the past 7 years.
I built a shop outbuilding and installed very low temperature ballast (-20°F start) banks of flourescent lights (3-5 strips per switch).
When on, there is a LOT of noise on the line. It was an intermittent comms issue that I had to narrow down to when the shop lights were on.
I installed the SA in line noise filters, one per bank, and that took care of it.

My garage and attic area flourescent fixtures have 0°F start ballasts and they don't produce any noise problems at all.
There must be something in the very low temp electronics.

I also have a cheap Chinese 10W LED flood light I use as a phone flasher in the shop.
When on constantly it produces terrible noise, cheap electronics I'm sure.
It hasn't been an issue since I only flash it for a short period when the phone rings, but if I wanted to use a bank of these for flood lights I'd have to install a noise filter.

Except for the microwave, I've never really had any noise issues.  My problem has always been getting the signal to the opposite phase. I'm not sure why that is because the transformer is not far from my house. The phase the PIM is on works great, the opposite side almost nothing. If I put the PIM on the other phase, that one is great but the first one has nothing, and this is with couplers.
 
I think initially I had an inverting coupler. That didn't work at all.  Then I tried non-inverting, and my opposite phase signal increased a little. Simply Automated advised me to use multiple non-inverting couplers, so I added three. That gave me a marginal signal everywhere. I tried a fourth one, but the difference was small.
 
So this is how its been for many years. Generally things work, but its not perfect.
 
So I got the split-phase repeater a few years ago, and it worked great but not with the older Simply Automated switches. So now on to a new house and I'm starting fresh. What Pete and Simply Automated say have me encouraged that the newer Simply Automated switches will work with a repeater. I'll receive one tomorrow and test it.
 
Simply Automated did say that they don't think their switches work with the three-phase repeater, if anyone needs one of them.

Ano:
 
Where is the PIM in relation to the load center?
 
I have mine installed at the load center which means the signal doesn't have to travel very far to reach the coupler - so the PIM is, more or less, equidistant from both phases.
 
Also I found there are many devices that can drag down the signal level - as a result I have a goodly number of filters installed on things like UPS, etc - this made a huge difference in signal strength.

Yeah here too have my HAI PIM adjacent to and connected to one breaker in the fuse panel.  I do also have a second SA Serial PIM next to it connected to Homeseer and a couple of floaters that I use to check signals.  Thinking it was a new pool pump that caused my signal degradation.  I didn't see noise; just a decrease in signal on the opposite phase of the PIM originally.
 
Here all of the newer switches are mostly SA dual load / multiple paddle.  Signals look good these days.
 
Yesterday checking the repeater I didn't see any noise.  Today its different.
 

In my current home, PIM is about about a garage length from the panel.  I'll try to reduce that on the new home.
 
Variable speed pool pumps are a big UPB noise generator. 

Here have left the X10, Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave (Leviton) PIMs adjacent to the fuse panel in the "utility" section of the basement.
 
I am really surprised how well the Leviton Z-Wave PIM works between conduit there in the basement. 
 
Playing a bit with Zigbee and the device is some 2 feet away from the Leviton Z-Wave PIM and it works well too.  It is between metal in a metal rack right now.  (testing the range on the little battery operated Zigbee gizmos).