Help with UPB

mikefamig

Senior Member
I'm just starting to plan some UPB devices for my Elk system and have read a lot about noise and signal strength. The biggest causes of noise that I've heard of so far are swimming pool pumps and well pump or what I interpret to mean high powered devices. I have both in my home and would like any tips on how to avoid problems and hours of troubleshooting.
 
I understand that I will need a phase coupler or a signal repeater but am not clear on the benefits of one over the other. I have also seen debates over GEN1 devices vs GEN2 devices and again don't understand the difference between the two.
 
Now to sum up all  that I have read I have come to the conclusion that getting a UPB system to work consistently may take some trial and error. I plan to start very simple with a PIM-E, coupling device, CIM, Upstart and a switch or two which brings me to my question.....
 
Can you guys give me the benefit of your experience and recommend a coupler and/or repeater, CIM and switch to start with that will increase my chance of success?  Of course I prefer the lower price of Simply automated parts but if one part is most critical I am willing to spend a little more on it to avoid problems.
 
So what would  you start with? Any help? Mike.
 
so far are swimming pool pumps
 
I could not pin point that this was an issue for me.  I did noticed a signal degradation on one phase but no noise which disconnected me from a few UPB when the swimming pool was installed next door.  This gave me issues with a few UPB switches until I put in the UPB repeater. I did not pay attention at the time what MFG of switches were giving me problems though.  I did initially try with a PCS and SA UPB phase coupler.  Here too have a hodgepodge of PCS, HAI and SA switches.  New switches are mostly SA today though.  Oldest/older switches are HAI / PCS.
 
Goofing around a bit today I do notice higher UPB signals on the second story furthest from the fuse panel in the basement (where the primary UPB PIM is at) today.  That said though the primary UPB PIM works just fine talking to all of the UPB switches  today.
 
I do keep a spare USB SA UPB floater around which I use around the house sometimes to look at signals of the UPB switches via the laptop.  These days though I do not really look much or even pay attention as all of the switches are working fine on three floors of the home.
 
Its been a few years now of UPB use and I never did really pay much attention to the gen1,2 or 3 thing. I initially did utilize the PCS UPB high amperage switches, then later SA and HAI.  They all worked fine for me.  That said UPB was just UPB to me.
 
pete_c said:
I could not pin point that this was an issue for me.  I did noticed a signal degradation on one phase but no noise which disconnected me from a few UPB when the swimming pool was installed next door.  This gave me issues with a few UPB switches until I put in the UPB repeater. I did not pay attention at the time what MFG of switches were giving me problems though.  I did initially try with a PCS and SA UPB phase coupler.  Here too have a hodgepodge of PCS, HAI and SA switches.  New switches are mostly SA today though.  Oldest/older switches are HAI / PCS.
 
Goofing around a bit today I do notice higher UPB signals on the second story furthest from the fuse panel in the basement (where the primary UPB PIM is at) today.  That said though the primary UPB PIM works just fine talking to all of the UPB switches  today.
 
I do keep a spare USB SA UPB floater around which I use around the house sometimes to look at signals of the UPB switches via the laptop.  These days though I do not really look much or even pay attention as all of the switches are working fine on three floors of the home.
 
Its been a few years now of UPB use and I never did really pay much attention to the gen1,2 or 3 thing. I initially did utilize the PCS UPB high amperage switches, then later SA and HAI.  They all worked fine for me.  That said UPB was just UPB to me.
 
Pete - Thanks that's very helpful. Is it true that you use upstart to read signal strength and noise via the CIM?
 
upstart to read signal strength and noise via the CIM?
 
Yup.  Neato software you can read signal strength and noise between UPB switch and anything else on the UPB network (another switch and repeater).
 
Upstart is a nice program. 
 
Once you are all set up though; you rarely have to use it as the UPB network is pretty stable. Well for me it is these days.
 
The attached shows two 1000 Watt switches.  The PCS one is older and has larger heat sinks than the HAI one which is newer.
 

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I would only pay more for PCS parts (expensive) for two components; the PIM you connect to a computer IF you are using something like HomeSeer or CQC, and a repeater, if you use one. Only PCS makes repeaters as far as I know. The PCS PIM is the strongest one, by far, if you need a strong one. Simply Automated makes good couplers if you don't use a repeater. Simply Automated switches are very flexible and a bit cheaper.
 
Yup; here have "settled" on the new Simply Automated switches (and all matching LED illumination). 
 
Historically was "testing"  and purchased based on UPB technologies using "el cheapo" methodologies assuming that UPB was UPB was UPB (well except for HLC). 
 
IE: Purchased the above new PCS switch new old stock for probably $50.
 
I've also not had any issues with my pool pumps and UPB.  The only two devices in my house that cause issue are my Panasonic Plasma TV and my Panasonic microwave (only when running).  I've put plug in filters on those two and they no longer cause a signal issue.  I have several other flat screens, servers, laptops, laser printers, chargers, compressors, etc. and nothing else has been an issue.
 
As a testament for how strong the UPB signals usually are, I mistakenly plugged my PIM into a power strip that was attached to an APC UPS system one time and did most of my initial programming on my house that way.  It wasn't until a bit later that I was noticing some of the transmissions were being retried a few times that I figured out I was running the PIM through a battery backup.  I was shocked that the signal was able to traverse the UPS so easily when my X-10 stuff was always stopped dead in it's tracks with the UPS.
 
ano said:
I would only pay more for PCS parts (expensive) for two components; the PIM you connect to a computer IF you are using something like HomeSeer or CQC, and a repeater, if you use one. Only PCS makes repeaters as far as I know. The PCS PIM is the strongest one, by far, if you need a strong one. Simply Automated makes good couplers if you don't use a repeater. Simply Automated switches are very flexible and a bit cheaper.
 
I bought an Elk PIM on ebay for thenice  price and the convenience of not needing to add a serial port:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261551498062?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
I will wait on buying a repeater until after I install a couple of switches and see how they work.
 
Mike.
 
JonW said:
I've also not had any issues with my pool pumps and UPB.  The only two devices in my house that cause issue are my Panasonic Plasma TV and my Panasonic microwave (only when running).  I've put a plug in filters on those two and they no longer cause a signal issue.  I have several other flat screens, servers, laptops, laser printers, chargers, compressors, etc. and nothing else has been an issue.
 
As a testament for how strong the UPB signals usually are, I mistakenly plugged my PIM into a power strip that was attached to an APC UPS system one time and did most of my initial programming on my house that way.  It wasn't until a bit later that I was noticing some of the transmissions were being retried a few times that I figured out I was running the PIM through a battery backup.  I was shocked that they signal was able to traverse the UPS so easily when my X-10 stuff was always stopped dead in it's tracks with the UPS.
 
Bummer, I own both a Panasonic plasma TV and microwave.
 
mikefamig said:
Bummer, I own both a Panasonic plasma TV and microwave.
I've had other LED, LCD and RPTV's that did not cause any issues.  Same with microwaves.  Only the Panny equipment.
 
I have a 70+ unit install in 3 buildings all on a single transformer.
I use SA equipment nearly exclusively, including 3 breaker box couplers.
My system has been operating for 5 years so far.
In that time I've had one switch failure (attributed to drilling through a stud and shorting the power line to a switch while it was on).

The only noise issues I've seen are with banks of extreme low temperature (-20°) ballast flourescent lights in my shop building and a cheap Chinese 10W LED floodlight.
My standard flourescent fixtures in the garage do not have noise problems.
I installed wired in noise filters int h shop lights and that solved the issue.
The LED floodlight is used as a phone flasher in the shop so it is never on constantly, otherwise I'd have to wire in a noise filter since it is noiser than the flourescent fixtures.

I did have an intermittent signal attenuation problem that I traced to my electric water heater.
When it is heating it effectively bridges both legs of the electrical system across a very small value resistor - the heating element (so it's nearly a direct connection).
Signals were attenuating when travelling from one leg to the opposite leg.
I fixed that by adding the two additional couplers, the effect of the SA couplers is additive.
 
Agreed. Im up to about 120 loads in my house and it always works. AND GREAT. Had to filter out Panasonic microwave AND im on FOUR panel boxes scattered throughout house. No repeaters and SA cim. I think I have three in the house: one for programming, one for HAI one for Total Control URC.
 
 
SA is SUPER, product AND support. Cant go wrong.
 
I have a much smaller installation but UPB has been very solid over the years. I needed an SA coupler (wired into the breaker box) but that was it to make everything rock solid. Only real UPB hardware problem I've encountered is when I recently switched my garage from incandescent to LED. There are 5 lights on the circuit and the SA switch didn't work well when dimmed to low levels (the lights would pulse every time a UPB command went out). Replacing one of the LED's with an incandescent resolved the problem but the longer-term solution was to replace the SA switch with an HAI switch (the only one I have) so I could run all LED's.
 
As I recall, the SA switches did not work properly with HAI repeaters but that was a few years ago so I don't know if that's still true. I never investigated as the coupler was working well enough. But something worth asking about if you decide to mix SA and HAI.
 
On the other hand, controller/software support of UPB isn't great so if you decided to replace your ELK, you'll find your options limited. Support is decent with legacy products like ELK, HAI Omni, Homeseer, and CQC but the new "smart" controllers (like SmartThings) usually only support wireless protocols like Z-Wave and Zigbee and I've never found any Mac software that supports it via a PIM. As usual with technology, the two choices come down to obsolete or doesn't work.
 
I just looked a t the data sheet for an SA UMC-USB-W controller and it looks like the USB device is not equal to the same serial port device. I've pasted a quote from the data sheet below. Notice that  the USB is for device and scene configuration only as opposed to the serial port device which can also control home automation controller appliations. What does this mean? Are they referring to Homeweer and CQC type apps?
 
Features 
 
Serial RS-232C Communication model: UMC-DB9-W
 Standard DB9 (female) connector and 6' cable
 For device and scene configuration 
 For home automation controller applications
 3 conductor power connection includes safety ground
Always on convenience outlet
 
USB Communication model: UMC-USB-W
 Standard USB connector and 6' cable
 For device and scene configuration only
 Not for home automation controller applications
 
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