Vista 20p Monitoring

I've searched around quite a bit and found some good info to get started. I've called some monitoring companies but the sales folks advice seem shaky at best. So, I've still got questions
 
I have a new Vista 20p that I'm going to begin installing but I wanted to figure out monitoring before I start doing anything.
 
I have Comcast phone & internet service and I would like to have VOIP monitoring with cellular backup. I don't need both upfront depending on the cost.
 
I've seen Uplinks, TG-1s and honeywell communicators and I don't what the difference is. Once rep told me my panel would work with VOIP out of the box but I'm thinking I'll at least need a jack of some sort. I've read some communicators won't be supported by carriers in the near future. As far as carriers go, I've read about pre-paid vs company supplied sims. I think I've reached analysis paralysis!
 
With that said, if anyone can comment or point me to some resources that would help me make a decision, that would be great.
 
Thanks in advance,
Brett
 
 
 

When you say VOIP, are you referring to the digital voice services that ISPs provide (e.g. Comcast)?

Yes, is that not correct? I was told digital voice was VOIP or maybe I did a poor job explaining. Either way, I just assumed that was true.

I would steer away from (industry buzzword marketing term) "digital voice". It's VOIP and it'll work, albeit there may be some issues or reliability, though it has improved over the years.
 
I'd recommend going with a cell as a first choice. Barring that, you'll need to ensure you've got a direct line and can ensure line seizure from the ATA to the panel and then feed the remaining phones.
Next to address is ensuring the standby backup time of that system exceeds that of your panel.

What about recommendations on the equipment for cellular monitoring? Figuring that out has been a struggle for me. Or resources work too. Thanks for the reply Del.

Depends on the carrier in your area (CDMA, etc.) and what the CS supports as they are not typically available (besides sale) to an end user. Usually the monitoring vendor or the like must be a dealer or supported (then sub-dealers, etc.)
 
I've dealt with Uplink, Telular, and C24 units and they all are decent (although the DSC units have had some QC issues).

The Telguard TG-4 looks like it would fit the bill for what I'm doing. Looks like it has dual paths too. Will most monitoring companies support this? Also, do any of these allow self monitoring while I test my system and decide on a company?
 
Looking at the Uplink product line, it seems I would need two pieces of hardware to get redundancy. Am I correct here?

Do not use a unit like a TG-4 or contemporary when VOIP is present. It's either one or the other. A unit that watches the lines for voltage to determine which path is a very bad idea on VOIP. Disconnect the ATA from the network and then see what the line voltage is....almost always with 95% of the hardware out there, it never changes even if there is not a viable path via the "phone lines".
 
Either gamble with VOIP or use a cell-only path. Do NOT intermingle them.
 
There was a huge 8 digit lawsuit and settlement for a large blue national that installed a system just like that....ended up getting a few people killed.
 
These devices are NOT intended for self monitoring, they are dialer capture units that have data ported to the CS. Telular requires the CS to be a dealer and Uplink has a few different ways to get data into a host CS.

That's good to know, I appreciate the answers. It's rather surprising though that there isn't a reliable and intelligent backup solution. I would seem instead of monitoring voltages, it would just try to connect and fail over otherwise. Or maybe that doesn't exist for home solutions /not affordable.
 
Fun weekend ahead getting this setup. Thanks again for the help!

The key is in how the original host system operates...you want the "backup" to be already failed over and up and running before a dial attempt is made. In the case of knowing whether or not a viable path exists, the only way is to measure voltage to see if the connection is there (remember how telephones work and have worked since the begininng). Cellular is a different beast.
 
Without going offhook and trying or sensing dial tone, there's no way to know if the connection is viable unless you spring the bucks for a leased line AND supervise end to end, and honestly, those days went away some time ago. The inherent issue is the VOIP ATA simulates dial tone AND/OR pushes out voltage whether or not a viable connection exists. Remember, VOIP is not a utility like a POTS line, so there is no requirement or standardization besides the basics that the hardware should work with the phones that exist in the world, same with the requirements for all the voltages that must exist on a POTS line to be compliant.
 
In the case of a cellular dialer, there is no way to supervise and tell if the VOIP can get through if the unit synthesizes dial tone and/or voltage...only when you try to dial and then fail after, in the case of a 20P, 8 attempts....which adds up to about 15 minutes or more easily. Then there's nothing to get the unit to switch over to the cellular on the failed communications routing because the system has everything that it would supervise as valid, so the system would fail to communicate altogether, even if you used a unit like Alarmnet that wires directly to the 20P's ECP bus. The only item that you could use would be to entertain a TCP/IP connection and hope the system and your CS act appropriately on loss of heartbeat and the host system switches over to another route on such...not to mention every piece of the TCP/IP connection should be put on a UPS.
 
The key is either you don't connect to the VOIP lines or you take your chances that the system will never switch over to cell and hope that what works today isn't changed later on.
 
As I said, a large national had a 8 digit payout on a system that had a lot of other issues besides a cell on a VOIP line, but that was a large part of the equation that set the wheels in motion that ended up with 3 people dead at the end of the day.

I was quite annoyed to find that my FiOS phone line kept specifically to support our Vista 20P panel's dialer was down without a "Comm Failure" indication last spring due to this "voltage there but no dial tone" issue. With only a weekly residential self test it was pure luck that I discovered the problem. We considered cellular, but in our area coverage can be spotty, and during the hurricane outages many of the available cell sites failed, not to mention the added cost of cellular based monitoring.

I am considering an Eyez-on keypad bus connected communicator with their central station monitoring. They indicate they perform an IP heartbeat test every ten minutes. I am willing to trade more reliable communications for a less known CS (and lower cost). Yes, I have long UPS run time available, and I will leave my national alarm company monitoring running until the alternative proves its reliability. What do others think of this solution?

I would actually think that a combination IP+cellular communicator that used ip as the primary (frequent communications testing) and cellular for wireless backup would be reliable solution. For instance the Honeywell iGSMV4G which works with their Vista 20p among others. It does appear to require AlarmNet monitoring through a dealer so it is costlier though.

I guess I'm thinking of best case scenario, dial, fail quick, move on but I'm too used to web technology it makes you wonder about Comcast and other providers offering services where they have a clear monitoring advantage.

@ Brett, you're confusing web items vs. life safety. Backups are supposed to be fail over and be functioning prior to being needed. Happens with servers and mirrors and other technology. You want the backup to be running when the host system fails, if not before. Comcast and others have ZERO services or advantanges when it comes to monitoring offerings. Their products are the same others offer on the market.
 
@ PCT, you discovered the wonders of VOIP and the inherent issues, but going to a straight IP based path is not the silver bullet either, especially with consumer level services. There is a huge risk with the Eyez-on device as it is not UL listed for monitoring purposes. While they are quick to point out their CS is ULC and approved, attaching a device to a UL listed panel that is not approved as such and meets none of the standard is huge. Whether or not they supervise a heartbeat becomes insiginificant at that point and frankly, 10 minutes is a LONG time to be off the network.
 
Remember, just because you have a UPS to support your hardware doesn't mean that your ISP meets any sort of criteria, because they're not required to. Happened to this area when Sandy went through....bad analogy due to the damage to POTS system, but even worse for the VOIP and similar services (IE: Uverse) when their network nodes didn't have power. Some sections of the region worked only to stop working at a mid stream node.

DELInstallations-
 
What are your thoughts on the Honeywell iGSMV4G as a solution for Brett?  Presumably that option does not violate the UL approval.  Does  the Honeywell Vista 21iP incorporate all of the functionality of the iGSMV4G plus a Vista 20p panel?  Given the age of my Vista 20P I was thinking of perhaps replacing it with a 21iP as the price for the full panel with IP+4G Cell (not including the labor to swap it out) is actually lower.

I'm not a fan of the 21iP personally. Too many compromises for panel location vs. best signal for the cell, not to mention you're locked into that cell, which hopefully the panel is being considered for an upgrade at the point that the latest gen cell service is being phased out. Also not a fan of an AIO solution...what happens if X needs replacement? Now the "cheaper" solution is going to cost you a lot more to fix. Same holds true if you don't want or have alarmnet coverage or choose to switch CS' to one that may not be an Alarmnet CS (a few do exist).  Don't get me wrong, I spent 15 years cutting my teeth installing Vista panels and hardware, it's good stuff, but if you want to change service providers it's a real PITA. I know in my area, Alarmnet used to have real coverage issues compared to, say, Telular or C24.
 
While it is nice to use a unit that is UL and wires to the ECP bus, you need to consider the entire picture and what/how the unit is going to be monitored.

Since he already owns the 20P and is looking for a monitoring solution, Uplink would be the universal solution as it can be ported (and invisible) to any CS, all the others are going to require a CS to be a partner or dealer to support.