Selecting a Protocol for lighting: Zwave or UPB?

Hi there,
 
I'm in the planning stages of my first foray into home automation. We are part of the way through a large renovation and I'm not looking at lighting. My plan is to have everything controlled by an HAI OmniPro II with eventually a more sophisticated HA software package running too (CQC, Haiku?).
 
I have been trying to decide on what protocol makes sense to use for light switches/dimmers. Originally I had thought Zwave but the Leviton HAI products seem to be UPB.
 
My house is a long (70' from end-to-end) ranch bungalow (3000 sq ft on the main floor with the same space downstairs) so I was concerned about the ability of Zwave stuff to cover the whole space, especially since only part of the house will have smart switches installed to start. At the same time I have 3 different electrical panels in the house (one main and two sub panels) and I don't know if UPB will work across a main/sub panel situation.
 
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Welcome to the Cocoontech forum Markl007.
 
Lots of friendly folks here and much information relating to what it is you want to do.  Many folks here have "done that" and "been there".  That said no sense in reinventing the wheel. 
 
Much has changed just in the last few years relating to lighting, lighting technologies and control of said lighting technologies.
 
Geez who would imagine a self contained lamp with a little wireless operating system that you could control remotely today.
 
Users here are using and playing with all of it or most of it today.  Ask your questions.  Note that all of the technologies have their pluses and minuses and there is no one that is better than another.  Much of the time it comes down to your personal take on the technology and mastering the use of said technology.  You can make anything work these days; literally writing.
 
Here I utilize both UPB and Z-Wave with my Leviton HAI OPII panel.  That said I have all conduit / metal boxes for my electric.
 
Note this is me and my personal stuff and what I have in place today.
 
My "light" switches today are all now UPB.  Recently upgraded many to dual load / multipaddle UPB switches.
 
I have installed a UPB repeater and it works well.  Been playing for a while such that I have PCS, HAI and SA UPB switches in place.
 
They all work fine with my Leviton HAI panel.   IE: you can use a repeater for your stuff and it will work.
 
The Z-Wave PIM is Leviton and it works fine for my needs buried between conduit adjacent to the fuse panel.  I don't pay attention to it.
 
I kept a floater UPB PIM around and typically use it if at all to install new switches or just check signal strengths.
 
I prefer the use of the powerline over wireless for lighting automation and do understand that sometimes you cannot do wire (or powerline). 
 
This methodology of using your electrical powerline is just simply using your base electrical transport mostly because its already there. 
 
UPB has evolved some over X10 and has been able to circumvent many of the powerline idiosyncrasies.  Then again Jeff Volp has taken the X10 stuff to a different level and it works well these days.  ( I use it).
 
There are multiple ways and means though; LV wiring interconnects to a controller, powerline, powerline / wireless hybrid and pure wireless. 
 
Wireless has always been a magical mystery from its inception.  (this is my opinion and I haven't been around since the turn of the last century - just like to read stuff).
 
I mean a solar spot RF storm or using a microwave or even your own body can reflect RF.  Many of the solutions have been to just add more and bigger wireless sticks.  Wishing they made special glasses today that you could wear and watch radio waves with.  It would be probably a wondrous and amazing thing you would see.
 
Relating to lighting automation my world comes from the late 1970's and using X-10 up until the 2000's.  I never paid attention as the lights worked when I touched the light switch or remotely.  There was no acknowledgements from the devices. 
 
Its much better today with that acknowledgement that the light has gone on. 
 
It has its benefits; but really its only a light bulb and the illumination of a room or multiple rooms. 
 
There was a time that I needed to know that the light was on without me looking at my consoles (well touchscreens or cellular phones).  Really and mostly just the warm and fuzzy that it is working without me looking is all that really matters.
 
I have over the years gone back to using X10 for the Holiday lighting set up.  Its only one house code and fast to set up. 
 
Mostly liking that it one command, one house code for all of the holiday lights; and its quick to set up.  Over the years did try the same using Insteon, UPB and Z-Wave.  While much fun; it was a waste of time for me for one month or so of holiday lighting.
 
The wireless lighting automation stuff is growing in leaps and bounds; much of it now with multifunction wireless everything automation hubs. 
 
Personally here I do not think its better rather thinking its just cheaper and faster and easier. 

If you are set on HAI omnipro as your controller, I would consider Centralite Jetstream for your lighting. It uses a zigbee based protocol and have a much higher  range than z-wave, and it is also encrypted. The system is very easy to configure/modify by a free software from centralite and it has many special features (adjustable LED at the switches, ability to configure any button as load or scene, ASCII commands etc.). It is also very easy to integrate with HAI panels, and you can program the switch buttons to activate any HAI action, like arm the system 2 minutes after you press the all off button, or turn the speakers on... You may have to register as a dealer at either worthington or automatedoutlet to be able to order the product, but is is worth it. RadioRA2 is a similar product with wider selection of devices, although it's about twice the price of jetstream.

Neither...Lutron RadioRa2.

Well you know what I use and I haven't used Zwave or UPB for lighting but if those were the choices, I'd say UPB as being more reliable. Too many times I've read about Zwave losing the entire configuration and needing to have all devices reenrolled. So I wouldn't even consider Zwave FOR LIGHTING. I'd use Zwave for other devices like locks and thermostats.

Welcome and good luck with your project.

David

UPB all the way. What is great about It other than being super reliable is that it can run completely independent of a master controller, and still provide lots of functionality. Lighting scenes, status displays, "3-way" lights and more all work with switches and nothing else. On the flip side, it can work with multiple controllers as well. Very reliable and very flexible at a reasonable price.

Insteon...hands down. Much cheaper and signal reliable.
 
The dual-band (powerline and RF) and dual-mesh reaches almost anywhere (especially into metal boxes) and every unit is a repeater. UDI ISY994i units are also zwave (with add-on) and X10 compatible for shorter range locks and older X10 system modules lingering in your junkbox, if any.

UPB is ROCK solid, EASY to use/install/program and is VERY cost effective. I hate wireless for reliability and control (accepts for hand helds for REMOTE control). Zwave IMO sucks and is second rate and a LAST resort. Pairing, lost connections, reliability, etc. List goes one. 
 
HAI works with UPB brilliantly. You can control it rs-232 and IP. VERY flexible. Cant go wrong. Works EVERYTIME. I have over 120 loads in my house going thru FOUR different electrical panels. Same with some customers. no issues. 
 
Im VERY pro UPB. 

I went with HAI CFL/LED UPB switches and the HAI OmniPro II panel. It was easy to setup and the switches have been 99% reliable. Over the past two years I have had a dozen times where the status of one light was wrong or a light didn't turn off. This mainly happens when I arm to night mode as I have the OmniPro turn off the downstairs lights. This takes 5-10 seconds to enumerate through the rooms. When I go upstairs I sometimes turn on one of the UPB switches. There is a small chance of a collision, which causes a command to be lost. What annoys me more is the dimming curve of the CFL/LED switches. When dimming from 100-90% the light output goes down drastically and then slowly the rest of the way.
 
I'm working on switching to Lutron RadioRA 2. If you have a few hours to watch the videos you can easily pass the certification to download the Essentials software. This software is required to program the main repeater. The nice thing about RadioRA 2 is I can program a scene across all the downstairs rooms to turn off the lights. This happens at once, unlike the HAI HLC UPB mode which goes room by room. I could use a UPB link, but then I would need to have the OmniPro request the status for those rooms or switches.

Z-wave all the way ;-). Lots of manufacturers making different kinds of devices.  Personally I would stay away from anything that is single supplier, although I do recognize that base z-wave chips are single-source.  I've heard horror stories and success stories about every technology.  I have a z-wave network with about 70 devices (hardwired and wireless) and it's been rock-solid.
 
Cheers
Al

I currently have a Zwave network that includes about 35 or-so devices. I have no issues with my setup in terms of reliability, and have not experienced any of the issues mentioned above with regard to possible lost pairings or setup, etc.
 
However, there is information to be known when selecting Zwave devices; not all Zwave devices are created equally and not all of them support all aspects of the Zwave protocol. Some support beaming, some do not. Some support instant status, most do not.
 
Having said that, my wife and I are working through the process of possibly having a new home built, and I'm probably going to end up with a mixed solution where I utilize UPB for the majority of the lighting, but will likely also have a small Zwave network setup to support our deadbolts. I've looked into electronic strikes and they just aren't something that I want to use in our home.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I had not read much about RadioRA 2 before but after doing some reading it sounds very interesting. I think it'll come down to either UPB or RadioRA 2. Some research to do and then a decision to make within the next week.

Don't think you can go wrong with either choice. I think RadioRa2 has more device options and is more elegant but UPB switches are more flexible with items like double-tap. And device options can be added to UPB (or RadioRa 2 for that matter) using Zwave. RadioRa2 has been 100% reliable for me and I've heard similar from those with UPB...I've also read a few people have problems with UPB if you or a neighbor has a noisy pool pump or similar item...but that is incredibly rare and I seriously doubt you'd have that problem. Realize with UPB you will need to have a plug that touches both sides of the panel (like a 220V plugin) or have a bridge/repeater (forget which) installed by an electrician. Someone with UPB can better address this and I consider this to be a minor issue. On the RadioRa2 side, you'd have to go through some training so nothing is perfect.

I believe you are referring to the Phase Coupler:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=39A00-1&section=63223&minisite=10251
 
However, they have a split-phase repeater as well:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=39A00-2&section=63223&minisite=10251
 
I haven't yet figured out when to use which one...

drvnbysound said:

I believe you are referring to the Phase Coupler:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=39A00-1&section=63223&minisite=10251

Click to expand...

Yes.

However, they have a split-phase repeater as well:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=39A00-2&section=63223&minisite=10251

Click to expand...

Yes.

I haven't yet figured out when to use which one...

Click to expand...

And yes...I don't know which one either but someone with UPB can quickly recommend the appropriate item.

>If However, there is information to be known when selecting Zwave devices; not all Zwave devices are created equally and not all of them support all aspects of the Zwave protocol. Some support beaming, some do not.
 
I have a co-worker that brought in the several Radio RA2 switches while I brought in Leviton Vizia+ equivalents.  From the feel and quality aspects, the Leviton devices seem to have same fit/finish as Lutron. RadioRA2 does seem attractive if you have a large house as it does not depend on a mesh network.  The biggest difference is between Vizia+ and RA2 from athetics seems to be

1. Paddle verses Toggle
2. RA2 has a larger assortment of scene controllers

 
I probably have ~20 Vizia+ devices. I only experience issues with my locks. The switches, plugins, scene controllers, etc.. do not have any issues and in some cases have been severely stressed without incident (cross my fingers). IMHO, I am not a big fan of Leviton RFIT. Hopefully, Leviton will start coming out with more frequent releases.