Camera advice?

Thinking of adding some cameras for driveway, etc and use zoneminder for NVR.  Should I be looking at IP cams or are analog cams still a reasonable choice for a decent low cost system?  (realize that is a matter of opinion...)  Here's a couple cams that claim night vision out to about 80' - longer than I thought most IR illumination would work.  Are they overstating this? 
 
http://www.microcenter.com/product/446438/CAM-930A_Hi-Resolution_Indoor-Outdoor_Bullet_Security_Camera
 
http://www.microcenter.com/product/437816/Pro-735_Multi-Prupose_Day-Night_Security_Camera_with_Night_Vision
 
Looks like lots to choose from - these are just a couple examples.
 
Need one for driveway about 60' from camera and a couple others for closer areas.
 
I have read that spiders like the LEDs so some have put the IR LEDs off the camera.  Are there low light cameras without LEDs or can the LEDs be turned off to use another illuminator?  I have other sensors so in some cases I might be able to leave the IR off until I get a trigger.
 
Haven't picked out hardware to digitize the video yet - figured something with just one chip with inputs multiplexed would be ok to start.  Of course, if I go with IP cams this won't be needed.

Are they overstating this?

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no
 

Are there low light cameras without LEDs or can the LEDs be turned off to use another illuminator?

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yes
 
Here DIY'd a few cameras using camera boards and Speco IP 67 dome housings with or without LEDs.  The OS's are getting faster and better. 
 
Geez in a couple of years or so you will be able to set up a few cameras and designate one camera as your primary CCTV/NVR server.  This miniaturization stuff if phenomenal. 
 
Just recently a peer purchased an Axis 2400 analog camera server and installed Zone Minder on a RPi2.  It is doing a fine job for him as it just works.
 
Here are posted pictures of an IP HD camera and features you can utilize.  Amazing stuff.
 
Personally here I like the POE wired camera.  Prices are all over the place.
 

Remember, IR's attract insects, and where there's insects, there's going to be spiderwebs, which is going to be maintenance, not to mention, if you have enough moths in your area, they're great for masking good portions of the view.

Thanks for teaching me a lesson, and it is really useful knowledge for me.  ray:

pete_c said:

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Are there low light cameras without LEDs or can the LEDs be turned off to use another illuminator?

 
yes
 
Here DIY'd a few cameras using camera boards and Speco IP 67 dome housings with or without LEDs.

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Any suggestions for models to look at or specific things to look for? IP vs NTSC?
 
 

DELInstallations said:

Remember, IR's attract insects, and where there's insects, there's going to be spiderwebs, which is going to be maintenance, not to mention, if you have enough moths in your area, they're great for masking good portions of the view.

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I realize that. That's why I brought up off camera LEDs and such. My real question is how to avoid or at least minimize the issue.

I leave my flood lights on at night (75% at sunset, to 25% after midnight) to assist with getting better IQ; due to this I have minimal bugs in front of or near the cameras as it seems that they are more attracted to the floods. The few I do get have been almost completely mitigated by sensitivity tuning on the motion detection.
 
Regarding maintenance, I wipe the domes about once every 6-8 months to clear some dust build-up off of them that ends up creating some reflection from the IR. It's literally a simple wipe, so it takes less than 5 seconds to do.

Any suggestions for models to look at or specific things to look for? IP vs NTSC?

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All of the cams are NTSC.
 
My older analog cams are Optex combo's.  I have updated these with newer analog camera boards / lens as the Optex combos are very modular.
 
I also have older Panasonic IP PT's which are IP but not HD with a maximum resolution of 640 X 480.
 
The rest of the newer IP cameras are Grandstream. 
 
I am at the most current firmware revision levels of these cameras. 
 
The specifications on the purchased Grandstream cams are not as good as the DIY'd Grandstream board boards that I have utilized.  (thinking the newer ones are 5MP now and are much faster than the stock Grandstream cams that I purchased).  (newest one is using a 180 degrees fish eye lens).
 
I have bits and pieces of boards, camera lens boards that I play with.  They are all the same and use a mini ZIF cable between the two boards.
 
The stock Grandstream's have built in LED illumination.  I just hose down the lens as I cannot reach some of them.  Some of the dome DIY cams have illumination and most do not. 
 
I have much outdoor lighting which remains on or turns on with outside activity after hours.  The ambient lighting does provide enough and better camera views than the LED illumination comparing the two.  The lighting also serves as a deterent which is my preference.  I make it daylight at night if need be.
 
The above screen grabs are from a newer revision of firmware for the Grandstream OS boards which is not available for the stock Grandstream IP cams.
 
I would recommend though that you purchase an off the shelf product.  I use jeweler tools for my DIY made HD IP cams  and it has been a time consumer learning endeavor playing with this stuff.  Next little project though is to refit the Optex combos with IPHD / POE camera boards as they will fit nicely in housing and I already am using cat5e, 12VDC power and RG6 to the cams right now; such that the update will be plug n play.  I have not seen a similiar design of outdoor combo cameras.  I like the footprint of these.  The outdoor Rokonet PIRs are larger than the old Optex combo cams.
 
Old Optex combo

 
New Optex combo

Found this fairly recent thread with more on specific cam brands and models:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/27426-camera-advice/

The new IP HD cameras are very reasonably priced this days.  
 
I have mentioned that I use Zone Minder and have utilized now for over 10 years.  It does work with just about any IP HD camera. 
 
Last year did a test install of Zone Minder and Homeseer 3 on one Ubuntu 64 bit build with much memory and a fast CPU.
 
It worked well and allowed for some better integration of automation / CCTV stuff and my HAI stuff. 
 
I am moving to that direction. I can play live TV / stream HD IP stuff today on my touchscreens that run Homeseer touch.
 
Well too have made the Homeseer 3 box a LAMP server adding custom PHP stuff relating to MySQL DB(s) utilized in Homeseer stuff.  Personally I can do much more with Homeseer 3 running on Linux than Wintel which I like.
 
Recently removed the 8 port analog ZM capture card and went to using Axis servers to feed a purely IP ZM set up.
 
Grandstream provides a software NVR which works fine and is free.
 
Concurrently here testing a Grandstream NVR - well it is still in the box - such that I am not testing it.
 
Many folks also utilize Blue Iris which is a Wintel OS product. 
 
As posted above check out the CCTV forum mentioned.  Those guys play with this stuff every day.
 
While searching I would suggest looking for the best bang for your buck IP cameras and not purchasing some combo propietary NVR / Camera set up.    The newer cams are little computers and do much more these days.

Back when cameras were more expensive, the pros were more "pro" - and it was commonly held that separate IR was better to keep the bugs off... but the last few years as camera prices have dropped, the market has been flooded by cameras and installers who install these single IP units with IR included... it's a matter of ease.  No longer are people installing extremely expensive cameras in heated/cooled housings with adjustable lenses... now they're slapping a $200 camera on the wall - and if you need more of a view, adding another.
 
I know theres some validity to the old way, but with how cheap these cameras are, there's a reason the landscape is changing.  $200 for a camera (must less if you like foscam) plus POE switches make this a lot easier.  Or you can still go to the box stores and buy 4, 8, 16-channel analog camera/recorder kits now that work fine as long as you can homerun every one of their wires.  It's a matter of what sort of quality you expect.
 
Here I want decent, but I'm cheap on my own house... I did the Grandstream cameras... I can't home-run so I have a POE switch in a central location powering most of them; the rest will be powered from another POE switch elsewhere with single wires connecting them all up.  I have the grandstream NVR running 24/7 recording but because it has no mobile app, I also use Blueiris to do motion recording and provide remote viewing.  I'm happy with it - it's caught a couple thefts from my neighbor's truck.  
 
It's all about the balance between cost/quality.
 
Regarding the bugs - I haven't had much issue with the spider webs; the cams get wiped down once or twice a year but that's about it.  I do have a few minutes in the middle of the night when it's pitch black when bugs swarm the cams flooding the view - then they dissipate.  It's weird but harmless.

Work2Play said:

Back when cameras were more expensive, the pros were more "pro" - and.....

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This is partially true.
 
The amount of box cameras getting installed has gone significantly down and it's pretty attractive to not assemble a shoebox sized enclosure and components, but there's plenty of places it's still done....they don't make bullets or domes with washers and wipers. I'm still putting in separate illuminators (Axis makes a really nice one). The settings that used to require a ton of field work on top of roofs, ladders and the like can all be done remotely on the new IP cameras. That said, I'm sure there's plenty of "integrators" out there doing trunkslam installs with the unit getting tossed on the network at all default settings, maybe a user/pass configured, but the real hardware has as many, if not more, settings that would make most semi-pro photographers blush.
 
The largest item is the flexibility an IP unit gives compared to an analog, but it's at the cost of either infrastructure, distance or bandwidth compared to a straight analog run with a bunch of splitters installed or then considering the multicast restrictions, client software or decoders that are needed. It's the same ballgame, just whose backbone you're putting equipment on vs. forging your own direction or infrastructure.

I've noticed that even products installed within the last 5 years don't have modern replacements as the IP cameras are pretty much requiring POE and not a separate source independent of the switch (Axis, for example), so now these customers that didn't install POE infrastructure are now having to consider such or a lot of midspan equipment.
 
The largest item is frankly the marketplace doesn't support the installation of a component camera product vs. an off shelf dome/bullet. People want a flat line item of $X per unit and in the realm where you can get a passable product for sub $100 at trade cost and get a few years out of it (hopefully) and chuck it when it dies or something better (hopefully) comes out. When we're proposing a NVR hybrid to an end user at around $15-20k and full NVR at $30K+ easily and then the comparisons come out that for $1K+ they can get a "functional" unit....where do the differences lie?

Work2Play said:

I have the grandstream NVR running 24/7 recording but because it has no mobile app, I also use Blueiris to do motion recording and provide remote viewing.  I'm happy with it - it's caught a couple thefts from my neighbor's truck.  

 
It's all about the balance between cost/quality.

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Curious... why are you running the NVR and BI concurrently? Why not have BI do the 24/7 recording too?

I guess I should've also said - if you were setting up a bank or high security place today you'd still get a pro that does things all the same ways... but it's the people who never could've/would've gotten into cameras due to cost now are because of these less expensive options.
 
drvnbysound - the PC I have BI running on was never really intended to do that - it's actually my regular home workstation - but now that I'm never home working at it I don't mind that it's busy.  That machine has SSD for the primary and a regular 3TB that the cams record to.  The NVR is the one I count on for the best recordings.  Also fairly recently I had an upgrade done on my safe that gives an RJ45 passthrough so I can keep the recorder inside the safe which is bolted down - that way if someone cleans out the inside of my house they won't get the video evidence.

Gotcha. 
 
I am just about to get all of my cameras swapped from a previous analog system and DVR to POE cameras with a NVR with BI. I built the NVR with that in mind. I've got a RAID1 setup for the OS (I do plan on adding some VMs and wanted some redundancy), and a 4TB drive at the moment that will be solely for 24/7 recording. I've estimated that I should get between 15-20 days of storage.
 
Additionally, with my setup, I'm not as concerned with someone cleaning out the DVR - my cameras have on-board SD cards which I plan to also be recording to. So if someone takes the DVR I should have at least a few days of video on the camera that I could get to as well.

Work2play,

Which model Grandstream cams did you get?

Del,

I don't quite understand what you are saying as I am not that familiar with the hardware, especially POE. Can you explain what you mean by a separate source independent of the switch and also the infrastructure issue. I don't see why POE is a big issue unless they don't have ethernet runs to the camera locations. I guess the other issue would be if they had several switches and the runs didn't all end up the same place that would require multiple POE switches...

DELInstallations said:

I've noticed that even products installed within the last 5 years don't have modern replacements as the IP cameras are pretty much requiring POE and not a separate source independent of the switch (Axis, for example), so now these customers that didn't install POE infrastructure are now having to consider such or a lot of midspan equipment.

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