Powering smokes just outside can?

Attaching pic, but what if I power the smokes literally just outside my Elk can? Any issue?  I have a 14" can as most of my stuff is in my secondary panel in the basement. It gets really tight to jam all the wires in the can.  I just re-attached my Elk after removing it to remodel that room and i'm not looking forward to doing that again. If I only run the signal its sooo much easier. I also really don't want to get a bigger can as its a waste.
 
The shelf height is changeable but honestly I like it where it is. I can put that boulder of an Elk transformer above it (where the outlet is).
 

btw what I was contemplating was mounting plastic protected terminal blocks like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DJJGSK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00 , I could put in a tiny can on that shelf above. The conduit technically comes in just above that shelf in the back. You can't see the LV single gang box due to the power pack placement.

I don't know of anything unique about powering a smoke detector other than using a cable with fire resistant insulator. That doesn't look like an ideal place for the detector though. It is usually recommended that it go at the top of a staircase and near stoves and fireplaces and such.
 
Mike.

Sorry, not the actual detector. I have 7 of those around the house. I meant just the saux voltage off the panel.

Do you mean that you are going to power the smokes with the wall wart in the photo that is plugged in outside the can? If that's true and assuming that the wall wart has sufficient power then the next problem that I see is that it is not backed up by the Systems batteries. I'm interested to see what the pros on the forum have to say.
 
Mike.

No sorry, I'll run the saux from inside the can to outside. Basically, the saux won't be protected by the physical can and I'll need to open the fire retardant jacket perhaps 18 inches from the end so I can pull out the red and black.

Is there any reason that you can't just run the fpl or whatever fire resistant wire that you are using into the can and connect it to the power supply there without splicing it?

I could, but with 7 smokes on top of everything else in a 14" can wire management is tough. I know it's doable as that's what I had 2 weeks ago before I had to take the elk off the wall so we could tear down and rebuild the wall but it was fugly and tight. Trying to find a way that isn't so jammed that the wiring itself is a potential point of failure.

OK I think that I understand now. I think that a small hobby enclosure with a terminal strip attached to or just next to the 14" can would be good enough but I'm no expert and being safety related I'm sure that someone else here can help you with code requirements.
 
Mike.

First, I hope you're running the smokes correctly, either a daisy chain or an appropriate feed in/out which becomes a daisy chain at that point and not a gigantic T-tap.
 
That said, why not make a junction in either a 4" square or 4 11/16" and call it a day. Protected, neat and the "right" way to go before introducing a ton of extra terminals in an already difficult location (remember, the NEC specifies your can is supposed to have appropriate clearance above, to the side and directly behind).

Dumb question: isn't Daisy chain a very stupid thing to do? In the event of a fire all you'd get is an alarm with the "good luck figuring out how to exit, hope you don't go the wrong way and run towards the fire".

I home runned all the cables and they're on their own zone. All were connected directly to saux, hence the wiring mgmt issue.

IVB said:

Dumb question: isn't Daisy chain a very stupid thing to do? In the event of a fire all you'd get is an alarm with the "good luck figuring out how to exit, hope you don't go the wrong way and run towards the fire".

I home runned all the cables and they're on their own zone. All were connected directly to saux, hence the wiring mgmt issue.

Click to expand...

Introducing multiple 4 wire smokes on a  residential panel introduces a whole host of other issues related to the troubles generated on the non-alarm zones on a properly supervised (via power supervision relays) at each of the detectors NOT in alarm, followed by the troubles generated by a reversing relay (if installed) on the non-alarm zones in addition to the troubles introduced upon a subsequent reset cycle and the functionality of a system silence/acknowledge.
 
If you want to get into specifics, I could bore you with how the panel and zones respond and provide basic numbers....I've provided that in another discussion, but if you want to know, say the word.
 
IMHO, it's not worth what the perceived ROI and additional hardware necessary to perform this correctly, not to mention what additional programming should be done to negate the system functionality that is changed by running multiple 4 wire zones on a system.

While it's not the answer that many like to hear, a properly wired fire zone/loop is a daisy chain with a supervision relay/EOLR at the last detector, not to mention how the panel gained it's UL listing. Also contained on the installation documents for the applicable detectors.
 
If location of the detector in alarm is paramount, there are other ways to skin that cat which end up being a far more robust and less troublesome installation. I've been working with a manufacturer and kitbashing the ASCII and serial port to get information from an ACS port on an addressable FACP into the M1. The more difficult items are getting the acknowledge, silence and reset portions working properly, but the end result is going to be a compliant and robust addressable solution on an M1. It's not everyone's cup of tea.
 
That said, I wish Elk would spend more time addressing their FA portion of the product over their wireless. I'd rather have multiple 2 wire zones or an addressable loop like GE/DMP/Honeywell have offered for years.

I have an Elk PD-9 mounted outside my can which powers my smokes. Rather than having it plugged into an A/C power adapter, I have the power supplied from the SAUX terminals on the M1 panel. The only downside of this approach is that I have to split my smoke wires before they get into the can: the power terminals go to the externally-mounted PD-9, and the zone activation wires go into the can. But I considered this to be the lesser of the evils compared to having lots of smoke power splices inside the can. This is essentially the same as your suggestion to use a terminal strip, but it's a slightly smarter terminal strip, and includes the features that Elk describes in the product literature "Each output is protected with an auto-resetting PTC to protect a shorted output from disabling the other outputs. A visual LED power indicator is provided for each output along with a single Master Power On/Off Switch."
I run a bunch of 4-wire smokes, each with a home run to the panel, not daisy chained, each with its own EOLR. So far I've had no problems, but in response to "DELinstallations", I'm eager to learn more about your concerns, and it would be great if you could post a link to your more detailed info. Thanks.

rexwilson said:

I have an Elk PD-9 mounted outside my can which powers my smokes. Rather than having it plugged into an A/C power adapter, I have the power supplied from the SAUX terminals on the M1 panel. The only downside of this approach is that I have to split my smoke wires before they get into the can: the power terminals go to the externally-mounted PD-9, and the zone activitation wires go into the can. But I considered this to be the lesser of the evils compared to having lots of smoke power splices inside the can.

Click to expand...

Oy, I think I even have a now unused PD9. (was using for something else).

Although, DELs post makes me want to do more research before rushing into reconnecting it all.

No link, but you need to be aware as to what happens to the smokes upon power loss (trouble) and how many you're generating at the same time, in addition to the reset process and what that does (generates a trouble on normal FA circuits) then you compound what happens upon a FA reversing relay (if applicable) trip...you got it, trouble condition on "unalarmed" zones. Now, how the system reacts and/or the reports to a CS, well that's another matter onto this.
 
Remember EOLR is different that a power supervision relay, which MUST be installed if you use 4 wire smokes.