Shielded wire

kurtmccaslin

Active Member
I am planning to connect a barn to a house that is 600 feet away.   My design is to run buried shielded cat 6 cable between the two buildings.   (the conduit is already in place)   I will run multiple cables for internet, phone, and RS485 bus.  I may also substitute fiber for the internet, but I have not fully mapped that out yet.
 
I am planning to install surge protectors on both ends of the cable.  
 
My questions is what do I do with the drain wire on the shielded cable?    Do I connect it to a ground on both ends of the cable?   One end of the cable?   or other?
 
Ethernet is rated for 100 meters.  You're talking twice that.  You'd have a problem, as in it won't work.  However, you can run fiber as easily as copper and the end converters aren't terribly expensive.  The upside is you get electrical isolation in the event of lightning or other electrical issues between the buildings.   If you have interim points that stay within 100m and they have power then you might be able to get by with extenders.  But then you're talking more gear and wire, which will likely exceed the cost of fiber and converters.  Past copper extenders resorted to using DSL or similar kinds of techniques, but they lose a lot of speed in the process.  There may be more recent gear than I've experienced for doing extending using just copper.  But you'd still need to have an in-between point for something like this:
 
http://www.veracityglobal.com/products/ethernet-and-poe-devices/outreach-lite.aspx
 
I'm not a 485 expert but I'd likewise question that distance.
 
Grounding is a problem when bridging buildings.  Various hassles develop with hum.  
 
Bill,
 
Thanks for the help.   I was not aware of the 100 meter limit.   I guess that means I will have to learn how to install fiber.  
 
The device that I wanted to use for the phone/gate control has a 3000 ft limit, so it would work with copper, but I may want to run this over fiber ethernet too.   I know that Mobotix makes a IP gate phone/camera but it is fairly expensive.    
 
I still need to get the bus for my Omni pro to the barn.   It has a 1000 ft limit, and I dont know of a way to put that on fiber.
 
Yeah, it gets gnarly when you start talking about converting other things to fiber.  Mainly because the market for doing telco over fiber has much higher pricing and much smaller scale than consumer stuff.   I'm sure some of the other security-oriented folks here could chime in with comments on that front.  Use the search feature here to see what others have discussed.
 
A question is ask is what do you expect to be doing in the remote building or locations nearby?  It matters because when extending Ethernet you trade off between speed/cost/distance.  If you're looking to run a home theater that's pulling a lot of video from a server in another building then you're not going to get by with using lower-end 'extenders'.  Those trade off cost for speed.  They'll go far, less expensively, but end up being slower.  How slow varies, but if you don't need much bandwidth it might be OK.  
 
At certain points it's also worth considering wireless.  If you've got decent line of sight that's sometimes worth considering.  Granted, that introduces another set of variables and expense for the various routers, antennae and cabling.  But it's an option to keep in mind.  Because with the right setup you can use the wireless link as a 'cable' of sorts.  That is, your gear at each end can still connect with wired ethernet and only the link between buildings need be wireless.  That and there's also the option of using a point-to-point wireless connection for the distance while still using another local setup for WiFi.  
 
This depends on the speed of your Ethernet.With good  and properly rated cable most are rated for 1000 feet, no problem. It's done in industrial and commercial buildings everywhere. I wouldn't try to get 1Gbit Ethernet on that cable though.
 
A router in bridge mode could work for you too.
 
As above fibre could be an option but may be expensive and need to have gentle installation. Underground fibre cable may be expensive to have terminated. I haven't seen this done for a few years since working in the industry installing city wide fibre networks so I would be sure the techniques have improved and would be cheaper than the glass wielding technique used then.
 
I still have two 100Mbit fibre to copper Ethernet media converters hanging about, I have never used. Plans changed. I used a Cisco router reflashed with DD-WRT firmware to connect to my home router so I use Wi-Fi between buildings for video and weather data updates from my weather station. With appropriate antennae WiFi is good for 20-30km.
 
Long copper shielding should only be grounded at the signal reception end. Make sure there is a good ground conductor to reduce any step voltages between buildings so your wires do not burn off from induction in the ground via lightning or grid system faults. Don't let your signal cables handle those! :)
 
My questions is what do I do with the drain wire on the shielded cable?    Do I connect it to a ground on both ends of the cable?   One end of the cable?   or other?
 
Thinking Mike here did similar with a shorter run and grounded both ends (?).  (garage / home connections).  I do not recall the end grounding solution any more.
 
Mike's thread is here and initially started with surge protection on both sides.
 
Conclusion was:
 
I decided that I've been wasting a lot of time trying to take a short cut so I went down to home depot and came home with a couple of 8' ground rods and drove them into the ground today each within about 6' of the surge devices
 
1000' is incorrect, certainly not for 100BaseT and absolutely not for 1000BaseT (gigE).   10BaseT, perhaps.   You will not get reliable Ethernet over that length.  There's fundamental issues of RF latency that will not work at that length.  You might get the link lights to engage, but if you go back and track the error rates on the packets they'll likely be unacceptably high.
 
A router in bridge mode, for what?  Yes, for wireless they're handy, dd-wrt can definitely do the job.  There's two ways to approach it, run a WiFi network at the house and then use a router at the outbuilding to act as a client.  Or use two routers, one on each end, so that all they do is provide a point-to-point network.  The latter approach requires a second unit, of course, but may be more reliable.  That and your traffic between the buildings won't be on the same WiFi channel as stuff in the house.  If you want additional WiFi coverage in the outbuilding you could use a two-radio router, one to handle the point-to-point and the other to provide local WiFi.  The configuration for this sort of thing gets a bit complicated and not all router radios will do as effective a job as others.  It's very hard to pin this down as there aren't a lot of people trying to use them this way.  Me, if I'm going to re-purpose lower-end routers like this I prefer to keep each of them configured for their purpose and just use more of them, instead of trying to force fewer things to do more.  I know enough to be able to do it, and I prefer to avoid it.
 
Having installed fiber myself, it's not really much more delicate that CAT6 during installation.  Which is to say CAT6 likewise requires being mindful not to break the conductors inside the jacket.  There are specifics with how connectors are put on the end, but the kits for gluing them are simple.  You do need to be prudent about how you handle the fiber strands at the ends.  That and make sure they're effectively supported/secured into their converters.
 
I was guessing that Larry meant 1000 feet with Ethernet extenders as the 100 meter ethernet limit has been mentioned already.
 
Yeah here used two DD-WRT WIreless Linksys to provide internet to my neighbors a few years back.  Worked well using one Linksys in the attic to other side across the street / court to their living room.
 
I did make tiny aluminum foil / paper half parabolic antennas that did work well.
 
You can go with an Ubiquiti set up if you do not want to play with DD-WRT'd boxes.
 
Here used a custom OS AP for my Amazon Echo.  I put a virtual switch on the radio to enable / disable using the Amazon Echo.
 
Yeah I would go for door #2 and use the offered media converters (multimode?) and do fiber. (door #1 is using media extenders and door #3 is wireless).
 
I've run Cat5E around 450' ft and got ~900Mb speeds. It's not 600' that the OP asked, and sure, it's definitely outside of spec, but I wouldn't say that it won't work without testing it.
 
There are obviously a ton of places that sell fiber, but a few searches that I've done in the past, and just now... I found Corning direct burial SMF, 4-strand, for ~$1/ft:
http://www.fibersavvy.com/store/p/8254-Armored-Fiber-Optic-Cable-4-Strand-Single-Mode-9/125-Corning-Fiber-Indoor/Outdoor-Distribution-Riser.aspx
 
For termination, it's not terribly difficult to do for an indoor environment - look at the Corning Unicam videos on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qigN8qR5ptM
 
Depending on the landscape between the buildings, ethernet isn't completely ruled out.  I have a 700' run in place right now that's been running about 3 years running a POE point to point microwave radio.  I am actually using a similar model to the Veracity product that Bill mentioned above - it's the Outreach Max I believe (vs the Lite) and it's not only extending the length but also repeating the POE.  Of course, that said, Fiber is the better way to go.  You don't have to learn to terminate it - you can buy preterminated fiber with pull eyes affixed (http://www.lanshack.com/Product.aspx?ProductId=7070).  If it were me I'd pair it with a decent 24 or 48 port switch in the house that has mini GBIC connectors, then in the remote shop I'd probably install something like a GS110TP switch.. 8 port POE; supports VLANS, and has two GBIC ports - and is gigabit.  Full gigabit speeds between buildings for a few hundred bucks and zero issues with transient voltage.
 
Now - if because of conditions, wireless seemed like the better way to go - I wouldn't hack together routers or any of that junk anymore... spend $120 buying a pair of Ubiquiti NanoStation Loco M5's which are fully outdoor rated and mount them on the outside of each building pointing at each other.  They're in the 5Ghz range which has less interference, more channels, etc - so it's better for PTP.  There's 300mbps (I need to avoid the multi-chain aggregate discussion here; as 300mbps is generally not anywhere as good as 100mbps of Wired ethernet but that's a story in and of itself).
 
For phone, I'd never personally be in a situation where the phone wasn't VoIP so the same ethernet connection would serve that purpose; but either way analog telephone should span that distance just fine.  RS485 also is usually OK - most of the time up to 4,000'.  Unfortunately it can be pretty tough to get around that - because it's hard to convert RS485 to other media types unless your particular manufacturer has a supported method.
 
All in all with proper planning I'm sure you can accomplish your goals - there may just be some specifics to contend with.
 
@Work, we have a bunch of those installed for some cameras and they do work. The problem is locating them close enough so you can get the power to them to push out further.....I wouldn't recommend if there's other options available....it's not easy to put a J-box to locate them in the ground.
 
Ethernet is rated to be specified for 90M horizontal (100M is the old definition) but now as the landscape is changing, they knocked 10M off what was listed as allowable and within standard to account for patching, even though it was patched before.
 
I can't comment about Larry's statement, it's just so far off the marks and incorrect for industry practice and standards, I don't even know where to begin to correct and provide accurate information.
 
Since I just had to spec and price out a solution for some failed equipment elsewhere, Linksys made a pretty nice switch and is now manufactured under the Cisco brand, sub-$300 for a managed, POE with GBIC ports and stackable. SRW208P was the PN I believe.
 
I would suggest to  'dillo to use fiber for all the TCP/IP possible and convert from there. You'd need to temper what the 485 is being used for, say like an M1, I haven't had a firm statement if it's possible or not and use FOC's to keep the M1 happy. Elk alluded to the M1 not liking latency when polling a couple times and I've not been driven to experiment on a large project if I can't be absolute if it'll work. Keep in mind, the 4K distance, is total for the entire system if you're talking Elk. POTS over copper, I'd just let the telco install their Dmarc and suppression and call it a day, but for the other items, a preterminated fiber might even be cheaper than the AWG and cable construction with ancillary devices needed, depending on the commodity market at the time of purchase.
 
If you're going exceptionally simple and still doing copper, to answer the original question the shield is connected to EG at one point only.
 
Thanks for all the great ideas.   I will definitely look into preterminated fiber.     It is also good to know that the shielded wire is grounded on one end.    I kind of figured that.  Seems that you would not want current flowing through your shield.
 
I also need to see what kind of IP gate phones are available.   I want to put a call station on the gate where visitors can call and I can open the gate remotely.   American Access systems has 3 versions-- wired into the phone system, wireless, and cellular.   However it does not have an IP solution.   Mobotix has an IP solution with a camera.   Looks pretty nice but a bit expensive.  
 
Viking has plenty of IP phones that would suit the bill for a gate phone and be pretty indestructible. I wouldn't go with DKS. They're more of an operator company that has the "me too" product line.
 
For gates, usually it's a KISS. Assuming there's a burg system and most likely fire alarm, that means you're going to need to tie it to the alarm anyhow (you'll need to have the gate open and latch open until system reset on fire alarm, burg can time out) either you're tying an input from the gate phone or a virtual. I've found it's easier to have the door phone provide the "output" to whatever controls the gate, either an input on the burg panel that dictates the time or to the gate controller itself. The limiting factor is going to be the release/relay time of the units involved.
 
If analog gate stations are more affordable, it's very easy to tie an analog station to a digital PBX via a $30 ATA.  Then the station becomes an extension rather than the typical phone-override... this opens up more possibilities, like having it ring several extensions around the house or even your cell phone(s).  Of course this requires a PBX but for the average tinkerer of this site, a RasPBX is a cheap piece of Pi (lame joke; that's ok).  I like running a PBX at home and since I use SIP lines instead of Analog it only makes sense.
 
@DEL - where I used the Outreach Max I really am running 700' with the repeater about dead center, driving a POE endpoint.  I used their high power injector at the head end vs. a typical 802.3af switchport and it's been flawless for years now.  It runs the primary backhaul for a 2300 acre property with cameras and WAPs all over the place so it's the single most important link on the property.  I probably should've done fiber and acquired power another way but I can't complain - it's really worked well.
 
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