Speaker Placement w/ Built in Bookcase

I am almost embarrassed to post this with all dedicated theaters here and on AVS Forum. I am looking for a 5.1 system at least. However, the boss has put aesthetics and budget far above sound quality on the priority list. So we are likely looking at MonoPrice or HTD speakers. And if a speaker placement is less than ideal but much better aesthetically then that is what will win out.

I have a small 1600 sqf house with a open living room, kitchen and dining room. We have a built in cabinets which we will wall mount a TV. Where shall I install my speakers?

The cabinets are centered to the open wall and since there is a coat closet on the far right of the wall the cabinets are not in the center of the wall and the TV will this be not in the middle of this wall.

Should Left and Right be centered to the TV and not the wall I assume? Should I put them inside the cabinetry or outside on the wall/ceiling?

Should the rear speakers be centered to the room or center to the TV?

Thanks for any ideas.
 
Edit: Added pictures of the build in cabinet as well as a floor plan for the living room.  The living room size is about 12 feet by 16 feet.

In these situations, I've done bookshelf-type or in-ceiling speakers for the LCR, and either in-ceiling or in-wall (depending on wall placements) for the surrounds. It's generally harder to a anything close to a "proper" setup in an open living area - and I'd much prefer to have symmetrically placed speakers in the viewing area than having to place them in odd locations in the provided walls. Free-standing speakers are not even an option in most of these homes as the home owners simply don't want the added "furniture" or clutter to the room, thus in-wall or in-ceiling speakers are preferred.
 
Regarding speaker placement, yes, I center the L and R speakers with the TV. I generally try to center the TV with the wall if at all possible, which then centers the speakers with the wall as well - but centering the speakers with the TV is first priority. I try to do the rears the same way, but in many cases they end up being centered with the room - having ceiling speakers off-center in a tray ceiling would look pretty weird to me. Sometimes, as you're seeing, aesthetics become a priority - particularly when it's not a dedicated theater room.
 
I have placed bookshelf type speakers on the shelves of the cabinets; generally trying to place them toward the VERY front of the shelf.
 
Having said all of that, there is some good information on the Dolby website regarding speaker placement. Here's a link to their guide for 5.1 placement:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/5-1-setup.html
 
Notably, most people try to place the "rear" speakers behind everything in the room (even if it's 8-ft behind the couch). Notice that they are recommended to be placed even with the listening position. I believe the recommended height is 12-18" above ear height of the listener (not even with). This is partly what I was referring to above with the room and in-wall speakers. In open floor plans, it's possible that you have a wall for one of the speakers to be in that position, but not the other. Then you have to determine how far off, from that position, you'd have to go to have them across from each other. If it's more than ~3-4ft, I generally recommend ceiling speakers and just place them above the couch. YMMV.

drvnbysound said:

In these situations, I've done bookshelf-type or in-ceiling speakers for the LCR, and either in-ceiling or in-wall (depending on wall placements) for the surrounds. It's generally harder to a anything close to a "proper" setup in an open living area - and I'd much prefer to have symmetrically placed speakers in the viewing area than having to place them in odd locations in the provided walls. Free-standing speakers are not even an option in most of these homes as the home owners simply don't want the added "furniture" or clutter to the room, thus in-wall or in-ceiling speakers are preferred.
 
Regarding speaker placement, yes, I center the L and R speakers with the TV. I generally try to center the TV with the wall if at all possible, which then centers the speakers with the wall as well - but centering the speakers with the TV is first priority. I try to do the rears the same way, but in many cases they end up being centered with the room - having ceiling speakers off-center in a tray ceiling would look pretty weird to me. Sometimes, as you're seeing, aesthetics become a priority - particularly when it's not a dedicated theater room.
 
I have placed bookshelf type speakers on the shelves of the cabinets; generally trying to place them toward the VERY front of the shelf.
 
Having said all of that, there is some good information on the Dolby website regarding speaker placement. Here's a link to their guide for 5.1 placement:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/surround-sound-speaker-setup/5-1-setup.html
 
Notably, most people try to place the "rear" speakers behind everything in the room (even if it's 8-ft behind the couch). Notice that they are recommended to be placed even with the listening position. I believe the recommended height is 12-18" above ear height of the listener (not even with). This is partly what I was referring to above with the room and in-wall speakers. In open floor plans, it's possible that you have a wall for one of the speakers to be in that position, but not the other. Then you have to determine how far off, from that position, you'd have to go to have them across from each other. If it's more than ~3-4ft, I generally recommend ceiling speakers and just place them above the couch. YMMV.

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Thanks for the feedback!
 
I had found the Dolby recommendations, but I almost feel not much applies.
 
The front speakers are supposed to be 22-33 degrees to the listener.  Assuming 14 feet from sofa to TV my speakers need to be 5.7 to 9 feet from the center of the TV.  Which there isn't enough room on the left of the TV for that.  Since the wife wants the cabinetry for pictures and other nick nacks I think I might be limited to in ceiling speakers and maybe a center below the TV. I assume putting it behind the TV is a bad idea.  But then I have LR in the ceiling and C down lower which could cause some issues.  But the I have read the center speaker should not be in the ceiling at it sounds like dialogue is coming from above.  Would this be a good application for a sound bar below the TV?
 
Like you said the rear is tricky with an open floor plan.  I could do both rears 12-18 inch above ear level and in the rear wall and that might not be too bad since the sofa will be against that back wall it won't appear to far behind the listener.  The rear speakers would have to be pretty far back in the corners not to be in front of the.  The studs in the house are all over the place an not logical so I will need to check if in wall is a realistic option.
 
The easy question.  The subwoofer- I was planning on a in wall sub from HTD in the corner of the back corner of the room, but there will be a L shaped sofa there.  Will that block too much of the sound?  Any other placement advice?
 
Thanks!

johngalt said:

Thanks for the feedback!
 
I had found the Dolby recommendations, but I almost feel not much applies.
 
The front speakers are supposed to be 22-33 degrees to the listener.  Assuming 14 feet from sofa to TV my speakers need to be 5.7 to 9 feet from the center of the TV.  Which there isn't enough room on the left of the TV for that.  Since the wife wants the cabinetry for pictures and other nick nacks I think I might be limited to in ceiling speakers and maybe a center below the TV. I assume putting it behind the TV is a bad idea.  But then I have LR in the ceiling and C down lower which could cause some issues.  But the I have read the center speaker should not be in the ceiling at it sounds like dialogue is coming from above.  Would this be a good application for a sound bar below the TV?
 
Like you said the rear is tricky with an open floor plan.  I could do both rears 12-18 inch above ear level and in the rear wall and that might not be too bad since the sofa will be against that back wall it won't appear to far behind the listener.  The rear speakers would have to be pretty far back in the corners not to be in front of the.  The studs in the house are all over the place an not logical so I will need to check if in wall is a realistic option.
 
The easy question.  The subwoofer- I was planning on a in wall sub from HTD in the corner of the back corner of the room, but there will be a L shaped sofa there.  Will that block too much of the sound?  Any other placement advice?
 
Thanks!

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My fronts certainly aren't 22-23 degrees from the center:
 

 
I guess I probably won't pass a THX certification, but it sounds great to me (and everyone who has watched TV at my house) and that's all I care about.
 
Are you going to fill the open portion of that cabinet with as large of a TV as you can get? If so, I'd probably try to put the L and R speakers inside the two spaces at the top left and right, and the center on the same base as the TV would sit on. Trying to get one with minimal height so it doesn't begin to block the bottom of the TV.
 
My rears are in the back wall as well, just above the listening position.
 
Re: LCR ceiling speakers, they do make ones that are angled so that they are pointing toward the listener(s) vs. straight down at the floor. For example: http://www.proficientaudio.com/products/home-theater/ceiling-lcr-speakers

The last 6-7 years, I've had a TV in a built-in cabinet.  Center was located below display, in-walls about 6 feet to each side, up high on the walls.  Wasn't ideal, but was absolutely good enough.  Unless you want to get a smaller TV and locate all L-C-R speakers in the cabinet, I think angled in-ceilings plus the center directly above or below the TV would be fine.
 
If you want a smaller TV, and want to spend a fortune, you could do something like this, with an articulating mount attached to the back of the cabinet, allowing the TV to be positioned at the front of the shelf:
 

 
I would build a shelf above or below the TV, for the center channel, and use L-R in-ceilings, for that room and built-in cabinets.
 
We just removed our built-in cabinets, in the family room.  TV is being moved to a different wall.

Here is what we did for built in custom shelving.  There are PVC chases and main wiring here goes to a central closet (where the OPII panel is).  (IE: main wiring is multiple speaker, network, RG6).  Each shelf also has HV outlets (each of the two sides).  This was done / planned around ~2000-2003.  DIY'd it except for the custom shelving done under my direction.  At the time the contractor didn't have a clue or knew anything about LV et al type of stuff or automation of HVAC stuff.  Subcontracted security guru cabling company did all of the LV stuff.  I did change much of the initial layout and direction of methodologies of where and what was wired.  (that said everything is wired everywhere).  I had much time to play with the drawings penciling in stuff; modifying much infrastructure and DIYing  / subcontracting what I had to do at the time.   I did have issues purchasing / finding in wall speakers at the time that I liked.
 
The wiring closet is in the middle of the home multiple cans on one wall. (Leviton HAI and Leviton Cans).
 
The center and side speakers are on the shelves. 
 

 
The ceilings are high and the rear / side speakers are in the ceiling here.  
 
The placement of the surround sound speakers is relative to the LCD television.  The rest of the house has pairs of speakers for the zoned audio (literally ever room and pool lanai section).   Each room with it's own speakers also has a keypad box.  I did similiar there to here in the midwest.
 
Thinking now there are many prerun LV cables in a chase which goes to the closet in the center of the home.  Easy to run the cables when no walls were up.  There are firebreaks in every wall of this home.

Wow.  Thanks for all the feedback.
 
@Neurorad - That articulating mount looks pretty awesome, but not in the budget even if my wife allowed it!
 
@Pete_c - That looks pretty awesome.  I haven't even moved in and I already wish I had done pre-wired a few things differently.  I have a single story ranch so easy access to attic and crawl space so adding a few wires will be less of a pain than others...still a pain however.
 
Right now I am leaning towards in ceiling for LCR and rear surround.  Specifically I am looking at the HTD HD65AIM Speakers for the LCR.  I have't bought the TV yet so there is a possibility of a center speaker below the TV in the center section of the cabinet, but right now I think that is a slim chance.  The reviews online at HTD mention that a fair number of people are using them for the center speaker and they are really happy.
 
The ceiling is only 8 feet and since the viewing area is about 12-14 feet from the TV I think in ceiling LCR will be okay because the angle between the TV and the speakers in the ceiling will be quite small and my ears might not be able to pick up the difference.  With the angled speaker and the visual cues of looking at the TV I am hoping I will be tricked and the dialogue will sound like it is coming from the TV.  This is my first time doing this, so who knows!
 
For the rears I was leaning towards HTD's HD65 or HD80.  The grill size of the HD65AIM is the same as the HD80 but the woofer size is the same of the HD65.  I don't think I need the 8 inch woofers for the rear in the small room, but then all the grill sizes match.
 
Monoprice also has aimable speakers that I could use for LCR, but I am leaning towards HTD.  Moonrise only sells them as pairs, so by the time I buy 4 HTD isn't that much more when I buy 3 and it seems HTD might sound a little better.  I like their customer service/support as well.
 
If I do go with in ceiling LCR I need to decide where I place them.  I could put the L and R in the corners of the room and the C aligned with the TV.  That would make the C speaker a lot closer to the L than the R since the TV isn't centered.  Or I could align them all to the TV, but if you are sitting along the front wall of the house the LCR will all be on the other side of you...it will be a bad angle at the TV so I don't think I care about this as much.  With a 7 month old at home I haven't watched a movie in...7 months.  So I don't envision us having a living room full of people over to watch movies on a frequent basis.  So if it sounds good for my wife and I, then I will be happy.

@John
 

I have a single story ranch so easy access to attic and crawl space so adding a few wires will be less of a pain than others...still a pain however.

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DIYing LV on a post build is really very cost effective and involves a bit of your own labor and wires are cheap.  Baby steps here one step at a time.   In the midwest redid the family room.  It was a bit more than just painting and window dressing stuff.  I redid the electric, tore out the old fireplace, floor and did add much in LV stuff.  Took about 2 months part time doing stuff when I could.  I did have a duplicate media set up in the master bedroom (couch and stuff in there too) so it was used while the family room was off limits.  Thinking about this I redid many rooms here providing WAF stuff (painting and windows) while concurrently always doing my LV stuff while the rooms have been off limits.  Put new wood flooring in and preferred the old fashioned methodologies rather that the prefinished stapled in wood stuff (which personally only looks nice).  I did have to deal with the WAF "are we there yet" stuff which I ignored.
 
Yup the new home build was a single story elevated ranch on (literally) at sea level.  Main ceilings are all high while bedrooms have either high or vaulted ceilings.   The attic is very large and I did run many chases in the cement flooring for this or for that.
 
At the time of the build I was doing infrastructure architecture for commercial (well and local domestic and international government stuff) and just used my knowledgebase relating to what I wanted in the new home relating to LV wiring.
 
What was nice was that I was able to work with the residential architecture / interior designer / GC and sort of babysat each piece of the build (I didn't micromanage it rather I did micromanage the builder relating to my stuff - well and did some commercial building stuff in the 80's-90's)

Additionally, my rears were in-ceiling, not an issue at all.

If you can make it happen, a center channel above or below the display within the cabinet will be your best bet, with in-ceiling L-R speakers. You can find them cheap, slim, and unobtrusive. With a typical widescreen TV, you'll probably have room for it anyway.

Neurorad said:

Additionally, my rears were in-ceiling, not an issue at all.

If you can make it happen, a center channel above or below the display within the cabinet will be your best bet, with in-ceiling L-R speakers. You can find them cheap, slim, and unobtrusive. With a typical widescreen TV, you'll probably have room for it anyway.

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Thanks.  Do you have a recommendation for a specific speaker that is slim?  The ones I were looking at were 7 inches which I think might still be too tall.  
 
Attached is a design of the built in with a standard 55" TV installed.  Just by eye balling it I don't think there is that much room for a center speaker, but I could be wrong. It appears to be about 4-6 inches above and below the TV.  I could move the TV up a little for more room down below or vice versa.

Generally I'm not a Bose fan at all, but I used their center in a similar case before. I just saw that it's been discontinued, but this is along the idea of a "thin" one that I was thinking of:
 
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-B4WrDRkwIbK/p_018VCS10/Bose-VCS-10-center-channel-speaker-Black.html
 
It's only 3-1/4" tall.
 
The Polk TL1 is only 4" tall.
 
Another option would be to put a false bottom to that shelf allowing the center to be physically just below the TV, but depending on total heights, that could end up reducing the amount of space for your allocated 55" screen...
 
I generally like all of my speakers to be on the same plane or close to it, which is my reservation to using a standard center speaker with in-ceiling L and R speakers. I'd be interested to hear how that transition sounds when something flies across the screen in front of you... does the sound make a V shape as it transitions? I get that time-alignment and level adjustments "should" correct for that, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't uneasy about it.

"Assuming 14 feet from sofa to TV my speakers need to be 5.7 to 9 feet from the center of the TV."



Move closer. It will allow you to get the rear speakers sound behind you and you are paying for a 55" TV so get use out of it. When we have guests over we move our swivel chairs back to make room for he grandkids etc. but when they leave we move our chairs about a foot closer.
 
After a few experiments I have even taken the TV off the wall and put it back on the stand moving it to the front of the cabinet. This aligns the screen with the front of the speakers making the sound image a similar distance as the picture.
 
Knocking a few feet of distance off to the screen is like the difference between iMax theatres and staying home watching the old 26" TV. 14 feet away is just too far to get the correct sensory involvement available today with the larger screens.
 
Also the centre speaker is what makes surround sound work. It allows you to see the voice volumes separately so that when a surround sound event happens the volume power is there without blasting you out on the mono/centered sounds heard 95% o the time. That one is hard to place as it is either above or below the screen and the image is not correct.
 
Rear speakers are annoying. If you haven't stopped your movie at least 6-8 times every month to answer the phone ringing on the TV, or wonder who has the noisy car on the street, then your speakers aren't set right

Articulating mount, attached to the rear of the cabinet, would allow for fairly precise positioning of the TV above or below a speaker.  
 
If you choose to use the included TV stand, you'll need to pick a TV before choosing the center, so you'll know exactly how much room you have above or below.
 
The discontinued Center Stage bracket was a neat idea.
 

 
Search google for 'low profile' center speaker.
 
This Yamaha is 4" tall  http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/home-speaker-systems/ns-c310_birch__u/
 
DefTech Mythos 7 is 4.16".
 
Make sure you run cable(s) for a subwoofer. Coax (RG6 or RG59 for moving line-level signals to a powered sub, 14/2 or 16/2 if passive in-wall subwoofer (subwoofer amp located with AVR)).
 
 
 
There are about a hundred speaker manufacturers, I'm sure you can find one 

With your room design, you could consider a low-profile LCR sound bar, though I think you'd need to splurge for a good one, for acceptable sound quality.
 
'Low profile' may not be the best search term - that refers to the depth.  

Here settled on the Bose center sound bar as pictured above a few years back.  I did try 2-3 other center sound bars before the Bose.  Sound is good along with the footprint.