Surveillance

We are using Élan g! for HA control in our new construction. The installed is quoting $600 for each wire path exterior camera (wire path) plus Around $2k for the NVR.

1. Seems extremely expensive. Are their better solutions/value out there?
2. Does it really need to be compatible with élan or would I just distribute the NVR via video matrix if I want to see cameras from a TV?

That actually seems a bit on the low side to me. You don't mention which brand camera he's installing, but I would expect to pay at least $600 per camera for a decent quality exterior camera (ie not the shit they sell at Costco), let alone the cost of the install. Exterior cameras are expensive because they require IR (and depending on climate) heaters. I generally pay $500+ per interior camera (but then again I buy Axis).

If you have the aptitude for it, you can use wireless IP cameras and run ZoneMinder on a Linux machine to record video. I already had wireless IP cams and can't run new wires for PoE cameras. I didn't want to spend the coin to install an off the shelf NVR so I dusted off an old PC to run Linux and ZoneMinder. To reduce wear on the consumer hard drives I only record video on motion detect.

Cost of DIY NVR
1. Cameras already in place - $99 each
2. PC repurposed for NVR - $0
3. Linux and ZoneMinder- $0

Pros
1. Free

Cons
1. Not as polished as off the shelf NVR
2. Requires knowledge of Linux and ZoneMinder

Yup; separate the pieces of the cabling required (time / labor and wire) and camera.  Balance out your confidence level relating to DIYing it.   You will learn the granular details doing it yourself.
 
You may reconsider your time and efforts versus a subcontracted professional paid time, hardware and effort..
 
During construction is the best time to put in the infrastructure whether you or a vendor is doing it.
 
Think about too if you want an autonomous system in hardware or software or a combination of both.  Nowadays with software and firmware integration CCTV is more plug n play than yesteryear.
 
Here over the years of ZM use have become comfortable with it.  There is a bit of a learning curve with it and it is very flexible. It runs on a Linux server base and is free.
 
Another common choice for Wintel has been Blue Iris.  
 
There is a large base of CCTV DIYers on the CCTV Forum.  Read there too.  The prices and quality and best bang for the buck IP HD cameras is way better today then just a few years ago.
 
You will typically pay premium for the older established companies.  This includes support of their products and warranty whether you purchase via a vendor or DIY and purchase your own cameras.

If you want extremely simple and inexpensive. Netgear has a battery operated wireless camera system. A friend installed a setup in his existing house. He thinks it's great. If I didn't already have a setup, I would seriously consider it.

https://www.arlo.com/en-us/

I have installed approx. 25 Hikvision cameras over the past two years and have had no issues to report. Great video quality and night time view for the cost (< $125ea) - all installed outdoors. I understand that this isn't 1,000k+ cameras and they haven't been fielded for 5-10 years so take it for what it's worth... but I would have no problem recommending them to anyone. I've had more issues with much more expensive Pelco cameras than I have Hikvision. And at the cost the Hiks are almost disposable if one were to break or go bad.

Price is about right. Probably cheap-ish for a full featured NVR depending on drive size and if it's standard or a RAID setup, so it sounds like either an embedded unit with built in POE or he's adding a 3rd party switch or injectors to an existing.
 
Price per camera, assuming they're not absolute crap is about right.

I like the Hikvision cams as well, and use them with a newer QNAP NAS that is their survalence station software. The QNAP also serves media via Plex and some other neat tricks and never breaks a sweat (this is the core i5 Cpu version and I also have an SSD cache).

If this is all gibberish, then having something supported locally is probably well worth the cost.

If this is all gibberish, then having something supported locally is probably well worth the cost.

Click to expand...

 
Very true.
 
It's been a while now here on the forum helped somebody pro bono that requested help after they had done a bunch of stuff.  The order of what was done was discombulated.
 
1 - before construction purchased a bunch of no name IP HD cameras - with no documentation
2 - instructed GC to put catXX cables to the locations of the cameras
3 - Person had the cheapo IPHD cameras painted to match the trim on the outside of the home.
4 - wired all of the IP HD cams with POE and powered up the cameras during construction
5 - person didn't have any clues about networking, no documention on the cheap cameras so endeavor went to a stand still.
 
Much time and efforts to configuring this were spent and while I considered it plug n play person had basically no knowledgebase of anything relating to computers and networking.  
 
He removed one painted camera and shipped it to me.  It was a standard configuration after I found the documentation on the cheap camera.  That said I configured it, explained what I did and shipped the camera back.  I doubt very much that the person understood what I did with the camera. I suggested that he hire a local vendor.  (note that he was on the West Coast and I am in the midwest). 
 
What I am writing about though is that there more to doing a CCTV DIY that appears on the surface.  If a person has no knowledgebase of infrastructure methodologies (cabling) and no basic knowledge skills relating to POE, Networking, IPHD cameras then it is kind of a wasted monies / hardware effort.
 
He was trying to save monies DIYing this with many assumptions and probably spent way more monies after the fact.
 
BTW you do want to stay away from Wireless IP Cameras unless you have no choice. 

Well geez got an interesting email today from CEPro that might be of interest relating to OP.
 
Troubleshooting Video Surveillance Systems
 

 
If there is a problem with your security video surveillance installation, it usually is not the camera or NVR/DVR. Indeed, odds are the root of the dilemma is in the infrastructure behind the CCTV system itself. Yet few integrators are able to logically isolate those back-end problems and instead immediately default to swapping out devices. In some cases, that is not such a bad idea, but what do you do after you have swapped out a device and the problem persists?
 
There are a specific set of questions that integrators need to ask to isolate the problem, covering overall construction/infrastructure changes, cabling, signal strength, installation methods, electrical resistance, IP equipment, and networks.
 
For example, when examining the premises’ infrastructure, key questions include: 

• Has anyone tried to correct the problem before now?  
• Has any new equipment been installed?  
• Have any changes take place at the premises, such as electrical work?

Each of these questions is a starting point to determine why the problem could be occurring. Indeed, 65 percent of CCTV system failures are related to cable problems. Factors such as cable length, bandwidth and the types of cables can come into play.
 
To help installers manage their CCTV system woes, download this free CE Pro Advantage Series white paper entitled “Isolating CCTV Infrastructure Issues.”
 
Register on CEPro and download white paper.  If it is a bit of information and white paper is a bit of an overload, then hire a professional.

Agree wholeheartedly. This stuff is so complex a professional "security guy" isn't necessarily a "networking guy" and vice versa, so even hiring a "pro" takes some diligence to make sure the person understands your needs and has the requisite competencies. Couple this with the fact that this is still a pretty immature market and we've all been spoiled by Apple-style ease of use in the consumer space, and you'll have to brace yourself for some frustration even if you know the requisite elements (network infra, cabling, etc.) or hire a pro.
 
 

pete_c said:

Very true.
 
It's been a while now here on the forum helped somebody pro bono that requested help after they had done a bunch of stuff.  The order of what was done was discombulated.
 
1 - before construction purchased a bunch of no name IP HD cameras - with no documentation
2 - instructed GC to put catXX cables to the locations of the cameras
3 - Person had the cheapo IPHD cameras painted to match the trim on the outside of the home.
4 - wired all of the IP HD cams with POE and powered up the cameras during construction
5 - person didn't have any clues about networking, no documention on the cheap cameras so endeavor went to a stand still.
 
Much time and efforts to configuring this were spent and while I considered it plug n play person had basically no knowledgebase of anything relating to computers and networking.  
 
He removed one painted camera and shipped it to me.  It was a standard configuration after I found the documentation on the cheap camera.  That said I configured it, explained what I did and shipped the camera back.  I doubt very much that the person understood what I did with the camera. I suggested that he hire a local vendor.  (note that he was on the West Coast and I am in the midwest). 
 
What I am writing about though is that there more to doing a CCTV DIY that appears on the surface.  If a person has no knowledgebase of infrastructure methodologies (cabling) and no basic knowledge skills relating to POE, Networking, IPHD cameras then it is kind of a wasted monies / hardware effort.
 
He was trying to save monies DIYing this with many assumptions and probably spent way more monies after the fact.
 
BTW you do want to stay away from Wireless IP Cameras unless you have no choice. 

Click to expand...

 

It depends really on the background of the "pro" and system and components being proposed. We're presently on something akin to generation 1.5 of the IP based cameras and products. The first gen NVR's and hybrid units required networking gear and configuration. The newer units on the market are literally plug and play, assuming the cabling is good, and require little to no network configuration on the camera/NVR side.
 
Getting a NVR on the end user's network and accessible to the outside world may or may not be easy for some guys, but this gen hardware and professional distribution units have made it much easier compared to the initial culture shock many who only dealt with analog units before the first IP cameras really started being seen in the wild. Hell, even with us, we were putting the units in on networks where POE didn't exist or was even a discussion let alone feasible (IR's, heaters, etc.), everything had a category and separate 18/2. Now it's the exact opposite, finding a camera that does not require POE is the challenge.

Yeah, I guess I'm a bit jaded here because I work with a LOT of this stuff at my day job so most is second nature to me now.

Thanks for all the great feedback. I have a bunch of networking and systems experience, but over the years have learned that the commercial/professional stuff just suits our family better. I think I will just suck it up and let the pros install.

One question, do most of the NVR's have a video out to my video matrix? Or does élan grab the video via http from each camera?

You need to determine if your proposed cameras are multicast or unicast and whether or not Elan supports them and/or what protocol. If ONVIF, you need to determine, unfortunately, which ONVIF (which defeated the purpose of the standard). It appears that their direct integration is with Vivotek, so the NVR would need to support their handler/driver.