Simple pool control?

J

jskibo

Member
I downsized to a new (to me) home last month. This one has a pool that was built shortly after the house (early 80s), but they did an awful job with the equipment.

Pump and filter are in the garage, gas heater just outside of it.

All the gear is direct wired to breakers, didn't know you could get away with that, and since they were too cheap to buy a 220 breaker, the pump actually has two 110v breakers controlling it. They have used the breakers as switches to control the gear.

I'd like to automate it a bit, but seeing as how this isn't my dream house, I don't want to dump $500+ into some Jandy / Pentair controller.

I was thinking of just wiring a double gang box and passing the lighting and heater through two GE Zwave switches, then I could control those via HS3. The pump had me frustrated, but I think I can wire that through an Elk9200 relay, then maybe use an Aeon Labs Zwave appliance plug to control the relay and thus the pump. Then I can schedule it all via HS3 and adjust based on weather inputs?

Any thoughts? Better solutions?
 
Another fellow replaced a box full of X10 modules with a very tidy Insteon setup. He couldn't make it work and we concluded that you can't put a bunch of RF devices into a metal  box that repeat each other' signals. It worked fine with the powerline only X10 modules.
 
Since Zwave is RF only makes sure you are not shielding them inside a metal box and that your distance to your HA controller is well within your HA controller range. I know Zwave does not have a long reach without repeaters and other gadgets.
 
Many of the professionally engineered pool controls logic boxes have HA controllable modules and may be more reliable. Cost may be a big factor there as it is fancy and only for the wealthy. :(
 
jskibo said:
I downsized to a new (to me) home last month. This one has a pool that was built shortly after the house (early 80s), but they did an awful job with the equipment.

Pump and filter are in the garage, gas heater just outside of it.

All the gear is direct wired to breakers, didn't know you could get away with that, and since they were too cheap to buy a 220 breaker, the pump actually has two 110v breakers controlling it. They have used the breakers as switches to control the gear.
Click to expand...
Hmmm...Did you have a home inspection?  Using a breaker to control a pool pump is not code. Sounds to me like you have a simple small claims lawsuit against that inspector unless you bought this home as-is.
 
In any case, there is no such thing as 110V breakers and 220V breakers.  Are you saying that the two breakers that control your pump is not a tandem breaker, meaning that the two levers are tied together?  If this is not the case, this is very bad and dangerous.  
 
Anyway, you can get Z-Wave, Zigbee, UPB or other controllers that can control a 220V load. Not had to find at all. Can also use a 220V contractor (relay) which an automated switch can control. These solutions will run you about $200 plus installation.  There is debate on this, but I think a ground fault breaker should be added as well. I've never had nuisance trips, but this is a possibility. In any case do it right and by the code. This is not an area for trial and error.
 
Personally I would get a professional pool installation company to review / offer suggestions relating to the infrastructure / methodologies of installation. 
 
Precedence is saftey first.
 
I have been using Homeseer now for many years.  That said I have a little story here about a Homeseer user / software plugin author who passed away a few years ago.  He was a DIYer.  Everything was DIY'd.  His widow asked me to look at his automation as she wasn't sure that she wanted to keep it going.  That said I did shut it off after a few months as it did need a constant watch over it.
 
The Homeseer person had an inground pool and built a pool house / storage area next to the pool which he kept locked.  The pool house was basically one room with pool pump, filter,  pool toys, etc.  His widow asked that I look at the pool infrastructure stuff as the pool pump had become disfunctional.  I am not a professional pool person nor an electrican and just have a knowledgebase relating to this stuff.
 
Homeseer peer had DIY'd electric about 100 feet or so to the pool house from the home.  The subpanel (HV) was on the floor of the pool house in the middle of one section which was odd to me.  The pool pump and filters were on the other side of the pool house.  Between all of this stuff were all of the pool toys and much water as he had done his own cement and it wasn't even.  I shut off the HV to the pool house and looked over the electrical panel.  The breakers were melting (I could see this outside of the breaker and removing the breakers saw that they were all pitted and melted)  and I told widow to hire a professional to redo all of the electric.  That said Homeseer peer had strick rules relating to the use of the pool for his wife and kids.  They were not allowed ever to go in the pool house that he kept under lock and key.  I am thinking that he was aware of the mickey mouse electric and rather than fix it he just left it that way.  Widow did hire a guru electrican to redo all of the HV wiring and a pool company to redo the pool infrastructure. 
 
Personally have had a pool since the late 80's.  The pool was removed and a new one was installed in the late 1990's during a home tear down and rebuild.  It was installed by a professional pool company and still using the same company to maintain it since the early 2000's.  It does have an attached jacuzzi piece to it with a remote that still works just fine today.   Rest of the stuff is old school mechanical (heater, pump timers et al) that I have not ever touched or automated.  Well too it works just fine and maybe still some day may automate it. 
 
ano said:
Hmmm...Did you have a home inspection?  Using a breaker to control a pool pump is not code. Sounds to me like you have a simple small claims lawsuit against that inspector unless you bought this home as-is.
 
In any case, there is no such thing as 110V breakers and 220V breakers.  Are you saying that the two breakers that control your pump is not a tandem breaker, meaning that the two levers are tied together?  If this is not the case, this is very bad and dangerous.  
 
Anyway, you can get Z-Wave, Zigbee, UPB or other controllers that can control a 220V load. Not had to find at all. Can also use a 220V contractor (relay) which an automated switch can control. These solutions will run you about $200 plus installation.  There is debate on this, but I think a ground fault breaker should be added as well. I've never had nuisance trips, but this is a possibility. In any case do it right and by the code. This is not an area for trial and error.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah the inspector caught it.  I got them on so much other stuff to fix and ended up paying $20k less than they paid for it in 2000, so I didn't mind taking on that project as I knew I wanted to change some stuff around.  Heck the filter was leaking and the heater from 1999 didn't work, but got both replaced a week after closing from the home warranty company :)
 
And yes they have two single pole 15 amp breakers controlling the pump.  Even more shocking is the city inspection sticker on the box.....go figure.
 
Think I will go the Zwave route along with the 220v relay.  None of the switches will be in metal as its in the garage.  All breakers are currently GFI, and I will replace the 2 15 amp ones with a double breaker GFI as well.
 
Thanks!
 
pete_c said:
Personally I would get a professional pool installation company to review / offer suggestions relating to the infrastructure / methodologies of installation. 
 
Precedence is saftey first.
 
I have been using Homeseer now for many years.  That said I have a little story here about a Homeseer user / software plugin author who passed away a few years ago.  He was a DIYer.  Everything was DIY'd.  His widow asked me to look at his automation as she wasn't sure that she wanted to keep it going.  That said I did shut it off after a few months as it did need a constant watch over it.
 
The Homeseer person had an inground pool and built a pool house / storage area next to the pool which he kept locked.  The pool house was basically one room with pool pump, filter,  pool toys, etc.  His widow asked that I look at the pool infrastructure stuff as the pool pump had become disfunctional.  I am not a professional pool person nor an electrican and just have a knowledgebase relating to this stuff.
 
Homeseer peer had DIY'd electric about 100 feet or so to the pool house from the home.  The subpanel (HV) was on the floor of the pool house in the middle of one section which was odd to me.  The pool pump and filters were on the other side of the pool house.  Between all of this stuff were all of the pool toys and much water as he had done his own cement and it wasn't even.  I shut off the HV to the pool house and looked over the electrical panel.  The breakers were melting (I could see this outside of the breaker and removing the breakers saw that they were all pitted and melted)  and I told widow to hire a professional to redo all of the electric.  That said Homeseer peer had strick rules relating to the use of the pool for his wife and kids.  They were not allowed ever to go in the pool house that he kept under lock and key.  I am thinking that he was aware of the mickey mouse electric and rather than fix it he just left it that way.  Widow did hire a guru electrican to redo all of the HV wiring and a pool company to redo the pool infrastructure. 
 
Personally have had a pool since the late 80's.  The pool was removed and a new one was installed in the late 1990's during a home tear down and rebuild.  It was installed by a professional pool company and still using the same company to maintain it since the early 2000's.  It does have an attached jacuzzi piece to it with a remote that still works just fine today.   Rest of the stuff is old school mechanical (heater, pump timers et al) that I have not ever touched or automated.  Well too it works just fine and maybe still some day may automate it. 
Click to expand...
 
 
Yikes! sounds like that one was a mess.
 
Other than the wrong breaker on the pump and not having switches, the installation is fine.  Proper box, conduit runs, additional grounding rod for that box (pump also ties to that rod) and GFI breakers.  Have no idea what they were thinking.
 
Pool company that replaced the filter and heater offered up two quotes.  Mechanical timer if I get the pump breaker replaced, for $200, and no labor if I have it installed when they open the pool (doesn't meet my automation needs).
 
Or, their automation system at $3200 (or $3900 with automated valves)....No thanks :)  Its not that impressive of a house
 
Be aware that the heater should shut down 15 - 20 minutes before the pump to allow it to cool. Some new heaters allow for shutting the heater and pump at the same time but read and understand the installation instructions for your model.
 
Mike.
 
The guy that passed away did totally manage the household.  (literally everything).
 
Yeah here let the pool company do whatever relating to automation of the new pool stuff around 2000. 
 
While the base is very legacy the controls do utilize wireless. (IE: pool pump, jacuzzi, heater, lighting)
 
The house is automated today with an OmniPro 2 and can do just about anything with it remotely.  That said while now old it is far two complex to bother ever explaining the infrastructure's use of.
 
The pool maintainance company has done well and is very familiar with the pool mechanicals/electric as it is "stock". 
 
That said if I were to automate with whatever it would add a propietary complexity to the whole pool infrastructure and personally here have no want to teach the pool maintainance company some new methodologies.  (thinking I would have an issue with a UPB, Z-Wave or X10 contactor as that still adds complexity - and is not what they are used to).
 
mikefamig said:
Be aware that the heater should shut down 15 - 20 minutes before the pump to allow it to cool. Some new heaters allow for shutting the heater and pump at the same time but read and understand the installation instructions for your model.
 
Mike.
Click to expand...
 
 
Yep, that's part of the rule set I will write.  Need to do it anyway so if someone hits the switch and it sees the pump not running, it immediately shuts back off.  Gas heater.
 
Only thing I can't control is heater temp setting as its a dial on the heater.  But I can monitor water temp and write associated rules.
 
Oh and I'm the poor guy maintaining the pool except open and close, so no worries if the pool company doesn't understand the controls, I'm around for those two events.
 
jskibo said:
Yep, that's part of the rule set I will write.  Need to do it anyway so if someone hits the switch and it sees the pump not running, it immediately shuts back off.  Gas heater.
 
Only thing I can't control is heater temp setting as its a dial on the heater.  But I can monitor water temp and write associated rules.
 
Oh and I'm the poor guy maintaining the pool except open and close, so no worries if the pool company doesn't understand the controls, I'm around for those two events.
Click to expand...
 
I maintain my inground pool including opening, closing and maintaining the pump and heater. I bring he heater and pump indoors in the winter to prolong their lives and keep the mice out.
 
I am a firm believer in the KISS principal and installed a simple mechanical 24 hour on/off pool timer on my pump and heater. I just set it and forget it. Automation is cool but I don't see any real advantage to doing the same thing with the Elk. I do have to turn the heat on and off manually but that works for me because we don't heat very often. The pump runs about eight hours a day and life is good. The switch costs less than $100 and the last one lasted me about 15 years.
 
I think that before committing to automating the system you should think about how often it's schedule actually changes in a day, week, month or even all season. With our usage I just couldn't see it.
 
Mike.
 
jskibo said:
And yes they have two single pole 15 amp breakers controlling the pump.  Even more shocking is the city inspection sticker on the box.....go figure.
 
Think I will go the Zwave route along with the 220v relay.  None of the switches will be in metal as its in the garage.  All breakers are currently GFI, and I will replace the 2 15 amp ones with a double breaker GFI as well.
Click to expand...
The city might have done the inspection before this was added. GFI for a hardwired pump is actually not required, but it is a good idea.
 
ano said:
The city might have done the inspection before this was added. GFI for a hardwired pump is actually not required, but it is a good idea.
Click to expand...
 
Its the only four breakers in the box :)  That subpanel is just for the pool.
 
I guess someone could have messed with it post install but age of everything seems to indicate original
 
I have the opposite idea.
If I contract anything out I regret it later. I live in a small rural town area and any professional contractor I have hired has made a complete mess of things. I mostly do it all myself now. When I can't anymore due to advancing age I will move back to a larger city.
 
I built my own home and mostly did everything ourselves with tendon and joint problems to show for it. I wouldn't do it again. Every subcontractor I had in cost me much time and money right down to two PEX to copper joints I had them do withthis garbage non-leaded solder. I figured a journeyman plumber at 63 years old had been doing this his whole life would be better than I was having only done thousands of joints with leaded solder. Yup, had to tear the drywall off to repair the joints and run a touch of lead into them.
 
Shingles blew off four times now. Finally got  shingle that could actually analyse the problem instead of making up bullshit about something he didn't understand. Oh yeah, he was the only one I called out of 17 that did show up, that time.
 
Had my roof frames with trusses and sheeting put on. Had to redo the alignment of the trusses in spots, as the contractor, normally a 4-5 house a year builder couldn't read the engineering specs from the truss company.
 
Bricklayer was a jerk an despite many promises kept upping the price and then after dragging his feet the whole summer said "see you next year"
 
The list goes on and on, but I learned a lot. Contractors are NOT your friends, especially in a small town where they are used to farm life and the first dip of the thermometer go on unemployment but have to get all their income  out of you during the few summer months. Written guarantees are just crap. Take them to court, the company can't be found anymore.
 
In short, I do it all myself, For trades that I didn't know much about, I had to learn so I may as well have done the learning first before I even hire somebody. Never give deposits. The pro builders don't. Declare yourself a company and brag how many homes/pools you will build in the next few years.
 
ano said:
The city might have done the inspection before this was added. GFI for a hardwired pump is actually not required, but it is a good idea.
Click to expand...
I think that it used to be gfi if it had an AC outlet and plug and not necessary if hard wired but when I did mine in 2011 the inspector said GFI even when hardwired.
 
Mike.
 
mikefamig said:
I think that it used to be gfi if it had an AC outlet and plug and not necessary if hard wired but when I did mine in 2011 the inspector said GFI even when hardwired.
 
Mike.
Click to expand...
That is the disagreement that I alluded to above. All outdoor outlets need a GFI and a pool pump outlet should be located 5 to 10 ft. from the pump if you have an outlet. this is clearcut. If it is hardwired, it varies. A bit like the rules for a refrigerator. I think it sounds like a good idea, but it also can trip the GFI for no reason, especially with variable speed pumps, which leaves your pool without a pump. Not good.  A pump is grounded, so in theory a GFI would never occur where the breaker didn't blow anyway. Plus 220V GFI breakers are rather pricey. and sometimes hard to find.  You may want to check the code where you like and NOT install it if not required, especially if you anything but a single speed pump. 
 
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