Elk M1 Gold & System Sensor w/ smokes & carbon monoxide

Based on lots of research (mostly here) I ended up pulling 18/4 firewire in a daisy chain configuration from my Elk M1 Gold panel to the smoke/co locations (panel -> smoke1 -> smoke2, -> smoke/carbon3, etc.).
 
I'm planning to purchase (qty 7) Security Sensor 4WTA-B (4-wire smoke detector w/ thermo & sounder) and (qty 2) System Sensor COSMO4W smoke/carbon detectors + COSMOD4W Interface
 
If I understand it correctly, the wiring should occur as follows:  

• Elk Panel -> COSMOD4W Interface -> Smoke Detector #1 -> Smoke Detector #2 -> Smoke/Carbon Detector #1 -> etc...  EOL Resistor at the end of daisy chain
• Where do I put the reversing relay - or is that what the COSMOD4W interface is for?

Question:

• Can I daisy chain smokes and smoke/carbon combos?
• Would you recommend a different setup?

Thanks!

You should be able to connect the COSMOD4W to a loop that has both COSMO-4W and 4WTA-B detectors.  No need for a reversing relay, as the COSMOD4W provides that function. 
 
But you do need to provide an EOL relay for power supervision, as well as the EOL resistor.

RAL said:

You should be able to connect the COSMOD4W to a loop that has both COSMO-4W and 4WTA-B detectors.  No need for a reversing relay, as the COSMOD4W provides that function. 
 
But you do need to provide an EOL relay for power supervision, as well as the EOL resistor.

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Thx RAL - I guess I don't understand the difference between a reversing relay and an EOL relay for power supervision...  Here's how I understand it - please correct as needed:

• Reversing Relay:  In a daisy chain configuration, a reversing relay needs to be installed at the last detector location so that if one detector goes off - they all will.
• EOL Resistor:  In a daisy chain config, an EOL resistor is installed at the last detector such that the alarm panel monitors everything between the panel and resistor (e.g. cut wire, etc.)
• COSMOD4W:  Installed at the panel location and eliminates the need for a reversing relay...?
• EOL Relay:  No idea what this means - same as a reversing relay?

I believe my hookup would be:

• Elk M1 Gold -> COSMOD4W -> 4WTA-B #1 -> 4WTA-B #2 -> COSMO-4W #1 -> 4WTA-B #3 -> 4WTA-B #4 -> 4WTA-B #5 -> COSMO-4W #2 -> 4WTA-B 6 -> 4WTA-B #7 (EOL Resistor - possibly the EOL relay RAL referred too)

A reversing relay is used to allow one smoke detector to trigger the sounder on all the smoke detectors in the daisy chain.  It is placed between the alarm panel and the first smoke detector in the loop.
 
Since you will have a COSMOD4W, one of the functions it provides is the function of the reversing relay.  No other reversing relay is necessary.
 
An EOL relay is used to monitor the power that is distributed to 4-wire smokes.  Since the power is provided over a separate pair of wires from the pair that is used to signal an alarm condition, without a EOL relay, you could have a break in the power wires to the smokes, deactivating them, and the alarm panel would never know. 
 
The contact on the EOL relay is wired in series with the EOL resistor, so that if power is lost, it opens the signalling circuit to the panel, and the panel sees a trouble condition.
 
Figure 4 in the COSMOD4W instruction manual shows how the relay is wired.  The system sensor part is EOLR-1.

I know nothing on the topic of smoke detectors but I did a little searching and found this old thread that may help. It contains a post from Spanky on how to wire a reversing relay to the Elk. Be aware that it is a very old post and I would talk to Elk directly to confirm the information but I thought you might find this helpful:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/2586-2-wire-reversing-relays-and-the-elk/
 
Mike.

FYI
 
The Elk wireless smokes are easy to install and do all alarm when one detector is violated. They also reset themselves.
 
Mike.

mikefamig said:

I know nothing on the topic of smoke detectors but I did a little searching and found this old thread that may help. It contains a post from Spanky on how to wire a reversing relay to the Elk. Be aware that it is a very old post and I would talk to Elk directly to confirm the information but I thought you might find this helpful:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/2586-2-wire-reversing-relays-and-the-elk/
 
Mike.

Click to expand...

The install directions for the COSMO are sufficient and should supercede what is in that post. The only item to ensure is NO mechanical latching detectors (heats, pulls) are installed on the loop that is set up for the reversing relay. The only other item is you'll need to add a second trigger for the tandem ring on CO and a little programming.
 
That said, I probably wouldn't have gone 4 wire in this case. The COSMO would allow a 2 wire loop to appear as a 4 wire loop at the panel for compatibility concerns and simplify the field installation, EOLR and supervision relay. I would strongly recommend going 2 wire in this case and feed the EOLR back to the panel.

DEL
 
How do you feel about wireless smoke detectors? My general feeling in the past has been that a wire is always more dependable than wireless but I've been getting more comfortable with wireless these days. I did install one Elk wireless smoke and there have been no false alarms. Other than that I can not say anything about it's performance becasue let's face it, it just sits there silently until you need it.
 
In the case of a smoke alarm it occurs to me that a wireless unit is not susceptible to wire damage from fire and it is very easy to install. The Elk smoke installs just like any other wireless device, just register it with the system and make a few zone settings and you're done. If one is violated they all make noise and they make a big racket.
 
Mike.

In the case of detectors, the variable would be ANY installed detector is better than none, but as far as RF vs. hardwired, I wouldn't choose to go wireless first, the only reason why that is done is to save labor....at some costs.
 
Sure, the bidirectional and integrated tandem ring are good things, same with the latest batch of commercially listed RF smokes (been a HUGE hole in the industry) but there's things a properly installed hardwired unit offers that RF does not. Wire damage is really trivial on an installed system, although in a residence, with minimal spot detection, it IS within the realm, so the same argument could be had to mandate sprinkler installation in new construction residential (which has happened in areas).
 
I'm not saying that RF can't offer similar (as they DO offer tamper detection, contrary to most hardwired conventional analog units) but it's just not out on the market.
 
You won't see too many guys wire a fire alarm as style 6/class A (depending on which era you're from) in a residence  http://www.mircomgroup.com/incaseoffire/item/399-nfpa-72-2013-an-update-on-nfpa-fire-alarm-circuit-designations
 
I'm still waiting for a panel manufacturer (or system sensor for that matter) to integrate and come up with a module to allow addressible smokes on their panels with tandem ring as standard. That would address a TON of issues with the guys that don't understand fire alarm, incorrectly wired the loop to begin with, and allow granular location of the devices. Only one manufacturer has done that I know of.....in all the years of devices being out there.

DELInstallations said:

I'm still waiting for a panel manufacturer (or system sensor for that matter) to integrate and come up with a module to allow addressible smokes on their panels with tandem ring as standard.

Click to expand...

Doesn't the Elk 2way smoke fit that description? I can address it via rules by it's zone number and it does ring all smokes in tandem when alarmed.
 
Mike.

Not a code compliant method. Yes, it'll give you individual zones/points, but doesn't give you any indication of what's going on with the detector besides a trouble condition...so you'd have to determine if that is a dirty chamber, out of tolerance or tamper condition. The tandem ring is not programmable.
 
Since the wireless signal is dependent on the panel and unsupervised for the sounders, it's not a legal/compliant method, although it's skirting the legal portion right on the line of black/white. Different animal than,say, an addressable SLC with sounder bases (although those systems would have a heck of a lot more logic and equations involved).

RAL said:

Figure 4 in the COSMOD4W instruction manual shows how the relay is wired.  The system sensor part is EOLR-1.

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I'm attempting to just hook up the interface module (COSMOD4W) and 1 (COSMO4W) smoke/carbon detector to my elk panel.  Everything works if I leave off the EOLR-1.  However, as soon as I hook up the EOLR-1 when I power on the Elk M1 the interface module smoke alarm lights up and the smoke/carbon alarm begins to go off.  I followed the diagram in the COSMOD4W instruction manual.
 
From my ELK Panel, zone 13 is smoke and 14 is CO.  Zone 13 (smoke) is set as 12-Fire Supervisory and Zone 14 (CO) is set as 17-Carbon Monoxide w/ type (0 = EOL Hardware / wireless).
 
Why is the smoke alarm going off as soon as I boot up the panel with the EOLR-1 connected to the smoke/carbon detector?

ccmichaelson said:

I'm attempting to just hook up the interface module (COSMOD4W) and 1 (COSMO4W) smoke/carbon detector to my elk panel.  Everything works if I leave off the EOLR-1.  However, as soon as I hook up the EOLR-1 when I power on the Elk M1 the interface module smoke alarm lights up and the smoke/carbon alarm begins to go off.  I followed the diagram in the COSMOD4W instruction manual.
 
From my ELK Panel, zone 13 is smoke and 14 is CO.  Zone 13 (smoke) is set as 12-Fire Supervisory and Zone 14 (CO) is set as 17-Carbon Monoxide w/ type (0 = EOL Hardware / wireless).
 
Why is the smoke alarm going off as soon as I boot up the panel with the EOLR-1 connected to the smoke/carbon detector?

Click to expand...

 
Do you have the 3.9K EOL resistor wired in series with the EOL relay contact?  If you left that out, the relay would be creating a short on the signaling wires, which would send it into alarm condition.  And do you have two 2.2k EOL resistors wired to the COSMOD4W?
 
Wondering why you used zone type 12 rather than 10 for the smoke zone.

RAL said:

Do you have the 3.9K EOL resistor wired in series with the EOL relay contact?  If you left that out, the relay would be creating a short on the signaling wires, which would send it into alarm condition.  And do you have two 2.2k EOL resistors wired to the COSMOD4W?
 
Wondering why you used zone type 12 rather than 10 for the smoke zone.

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@RAL - You're awesome!  I had the 3.9 resistor connected in parallel with the relay (didn't understand the document).  I do have the 2.2 resistors on the cosmod4w.  I changed the smoke type from 12 to 10 (didn't know the difference) and that was obviously the right setting because when i hit the test smoke alarm it sets off panel.
 
The only thing I can't figure out now is how to silence the smoke alarm (without disconnecting power).  If I punch in the alarm password the CO alarm will stop/reset but not a smoke alarm - any ideas?

ccmichaelson said:

The only thing I can't figure out now is how to silence the smoke alarm (without disconnecting power).  If I punch in the alarm password the CO alarm will stop/reset but not a smoke alarm - any ideas?

Click to expand...

 
Did you connect the Power In terminals on the COSMOD4W to the SAUX power terminals on the M1?  The SAUX terminals are switched and will provide the reset to the smokes.  The VAUX power terminals do not provide a power reset.