Help me understand 3-way switches

Bzncrewjr

Active Member
New construction:
 
I'm having electricians wire as they normally do.  This will include many 3-way maybe some 4-way switches.
My plan is to live in the house and figure out where automated switches make sense and add them later.
 
Now I'm exploring switches/dimmers.  Many choices, however it seems many folks like UPB technology. 
So...starting to shop/plan/budget for this stuff and I have no idea how or what to buy.
 
What kind of HA switches/dimmers?    I've seen "slave" switches with little explanation how and where to use these.
 
For example, for a 3-way circuit, what do I need to look at?  Master/slave?   Does the slave replace one of the 3-way standard switches.   
 
Most places where I'd do HA switches/dimmers will likely be 3-way.   And I assume all this can be controlled by an Omni panel.
 
--Russ
 
 
 
Bzncrewjr said:
New construction:
 
I'm having electricians wire as they normally do.  This will include many 3-way maybe some 4-way switches.
My plan is to live in the house and figure out where automated switches make sense and add them later.
 
Now I'm exploring switches/dimmers.  Many choices, however it seems many folks like UPB technology. 
So...starting to shop/plan/budget for this stuff and I have no idea how or what to buy.
 
What kind of HA switches/dimmers?    I've seen "slave" switches with little explanation how and where to use these.
 
For example, for a 3-way circuit, what do I need to look at?  Master/slave?   Does the slave replace one of the 3-way standard switches.   
 
Most places where I'd do HA switches/dimmers will likely be 3-way.   And I assume all this can be controlled by an Omni panel.
 
--Russ
I would let the electricians wire as they would.  Basically this adds an additional wire between three-way or more way switches. When you sell your house some day, you may want to put the original switches back.
 
UPB is great. They do make remotes but I'm personally not a fan. Basically these are dummy switches with one control wire that connects to a master switch and can turn it on and off. Why I don't like them is because they don't really feel like a normal switch, and the LED doesn't operate like a normal switch. In other words typically the LED on these switches is always on. To add insult to injury, With HAI and SA, the LED they use is slightly different color and brightness than a main switch.
 
Rather than use a remote switch, I recommend putting a full-function switch at every location even without a load to control.  Why, because EVERY regular UPB switch can be programmed to operate any other switch in your house. In other words, you not locked into controlling just the light the builder planned, you can control ANY other UPB switch in your house, dim it, brighten it, etc. and if you do it right, the LED will match the state of the other switch. A negative, is full switches cost more than remote switches, but they are much more flexible. Just my opinion. But if you do use remote switches, try one before you commit. I have a box full of remote switches I never used.
 
ano said:
in other words typically the LED on these switches is always on
 
That simply indicates the remote switch is in the wrong location. For the LED to track the on/off state of the load they need to be "down river" of the actual dimmer unit (between the dimmer and the load).
 
Regardless of the tech you choose, make sure that the electrician includes a neutral at all switch locations. No switch loops, please.
 
Bzncrewjr said:
My plan is to live in the house and figure out where automated switches make sense and add them later.
 
Do not do this.  Bite the bullet, put them all in at once.  Otherwise you won't get around to doing it later.  
 
Neutral at all wall box locations.  
 
Run 14/3 to all central ceiling light fixtures (for later ceiling fan support).  Even if you don't plan on putting one in there it's a pain in the ass to wire up for one later.   Apply this line of thought to ALL of the wiring.  Think about how much hassle/expense it would be later to add something that could have been easily done BEFORE drywall/paint.
 
Personally, I've long been a fan of Lutron lighting switches. Nice plastics that feel nice to use, lots of color choices, good wife-acceptance-factor and ultra reliable.  Not cheap, but worth the price.  There are sources out there for better pricing, don't go by just list prices.  They can be installed just like any other switches, there's nothing special about them from a wiring standpoint.  They also offer RF remotes that are the same size as a Decora-style switch.  Making it easy to get the same switch look/feel in other locations.
 
I've always advised anyone building a new house to spend money to hire a lighting consultant.  Little things like moving/adding light fixtures and switches can do a lot to make a space just that much more versatile and pleasant.  
 
They key to multi-way switches is understanding where the load is going to be wired.  Various lighting switch schemes handle remote switch differently, but they all depend on an actual dimmer at the load controlling location.  This becomes a factor if you're planning on using things like hybrid keypad/dimmers for control, as opposed to just a single dimmer button.  
 
I mention 'multi-way' and not 3-way because with modern controllable lighting it's possible to have more than just two switches.  I have one circuit for some outdoor floodlights that can be controlled from four locations.
 
wkearney99 said:
Do not do this.  Bite the bullet, put them all in at once.  Otherwise you won't get around to doing it later.  
There are some locations that I KNOW I want controls.  Bedroom, Great room etc.   So I'm kind of thinking of doing this for some locations now.
However, the electricians have pulled 95% of wiring already so that's where I'm starting.
 
We were going to get a lighting consultant in.   It didn't work out with timing.   The electrician needed to know NOW.   I'm afraid we over lit some areas with recessed lighting, but they are all mounted already.  Lots of wall sconces also.   I did insist on lighting the tray ceilings so they wired for that.   I want dimmers everywhere.   "scene" lighting would be great.
 
wkearney99 said:
Neutral at all wall box locations.  
un 14/3 to all central ceiling light fixtures (for later ceiling fan support).  Even if you don't plan on putting one in there it's a pain in the ass to wire up for one later.   Apply this line of thought to ALL of the wiring.  Think about how much hassle/expense it would be later to add something that could have been easily done BEFORE drywall/paint.
They are running this to all ceiling fixtures now.   The electrician said that's what they do even if the homeowner doesn't want a light/fan combo now.
 
Here's where I'm confused.
I've replaced zillions of traditional switches with dimmers.   The 3-way dimmers still required 3-way switches on the other wall.  
In the world of HA switches, I don't see "3-way" as a type.  I see "Master" and "Slave".     I'm a bit confused to what I would need to be search for in a multi-way switch scenario.   And then how do I wire them in replacing the 3-way the electricians will put in there initially.
 
--Russ
 
Bzncrewjr said:
Here's where I'm confused.
I've replaced zillions of traditional switches with dimmers.   The 3-way dimmers still required 3-way switches on the other wall.  
In the world of HA switches, I don't see "3-way" as a type.  I see "Master" and "Slave".     I'm a bit confused to what I would need to be search for in a multi-way switch scenario.   And then how do I wire them in replacing the 3-way the electricians will put in there initially.
 
--Russ
UPB doesn't have "3 way" switches. So what it comes down to is, you have to rewire the 3 way circuit so the "master" switch (can be in either location if wired correctly as said above, neutral to all switches) operates the load. IOW, take both original 3 way switches out, put a master UPB in one box, wire it so that switch operates the light. Then you place slaves anywhere you want them. Literally. You can put a slave for your bedroom at your front gate if you wanted to and it will operate the light using UPB links. This would require a regular UPB switch, not a "slave" per se. The difference is the slave doesn't have any intelligence. It merely connects to a master through one of the original 3 way traveler wires, when you press the slave on, it sends a signal through that traveler and tells the master to turn on.
So a lot of people don't use the "slave" switches and opt to just put a UPB switch in instead, using links. Cost being the the only really reason to use the slaves if replacing an existing, correctly wired, 3 way circuit.
Neutral everywhere!!! Tell the electricians that every day.
 
I remember the crunch of DO IT NOW decision making during construction.  Ugh, the stress....  I don't miss THAT at all...
 
The good news about Lutron dimmers is they work great in a traditional wiring setup.  Their remote dimmers will work with the way traditional 'traveler' wires are set up.  That and their phone support folks know how to talk to electricians.  Ours called the 800 number and they talked through it easily.  
 
If possible DO NOT LET THEM BACKSTAB THE SWITCHES.  Those are a pain in the ass to unplug later.  Have them use the screw terminals instead.  That and backstab connections have their share of reliability woes.  They may balk at this.  Otherwise you'll have to cut the wire and re-strip the insulation a bit when you replace them.  Trivial, I know, but it's worth considering.
 
Scenes are hard to plan until you've lived in the space.  This becomes a factor for keypad engraving.  It's often wise to go with keypads that can have their engraving done after the fact.  I've changed my scenes a number of times and I'm almost ready to commit to keypad engraving.  This after TWO YEARS in the house.  Heh.
 
One suggestion, if possible add an extra position in the wall boxes next to the 'main entrances' for a keypad.  Yes, you can get away with using a hybrid keypad that acts as both a dimmer and a keypad.  But in my experience it's more convenient to allow for lighting loads to be controlled directly, not just via a button on keypad.   By 'main entrances' I mean the doors that will get the most frequent use as regular entry/exit doors.  This way you'll have a place for buttons like 'All Off' and potentially a toggle for Vacation or other 'whole house' kinds of modes.
 
Changing to a larger box is trivial for an electrician.  Especially if there's no drywall up.  Doing it after the fact is a lot more hassle.  Just avoid going to larger than a 4-gang box as it becomes tricky to get bigger faceplates.
 
Speaking of faceplates, have you chosen them yet?  Personally I like the Claro screw-less kind from Lutron.  Again, a little more spendy but the look is nice.  That's an easy retrofit later and that's what I've been doing.  Just know that sometimes different faceplates will leave larger or smaller impressions when the walls get painted.  Some of the cheap wall plates are large and rounded and you'd end up with a gap around them in the paint if/when you went with something else later.
 
Bzncrewjr said:
 
 
Here's where I'm confused.
I've replaced zillions of traditional switches with dimmers.   The 3-way dimmers still required 3-way switches on the other wall.  
In the world of HA switches, I don't see "3-way" as a type.  I see "Master" and "Slave".     I'm a bit confused to what I would need to be search for in a multi-way switch scenario.   And then how do I wire them in replacing the 3-way the electricians will put in there initially.
 
--Russ
I use insteon and zwave, but suspect most automated switches are similarly wired. With most such switches, there are no "travelers", per se. Instead, these switches require hot and neutral. Communication between switches is through the power wires, or rf, rather than discrete travelers. Ina multiway installation, only one switch is cnnected to the load. The remaining switches are programmed simply command the connected switch. There or often NO difference physically between single switches and those used in multi-way installatio

Now...I understand some brands have exceptions, but I
 
wkearney99 said:
I remember the crunch of DO IT NOW decision making during construction.  Ugh, the stress....  I don't miss THAT at all...
 
The good news about Lutron dimmers is they work great in a traditional wiring setup.  Their remote dimmers will work with the way traditional 'traveler' wires are set up.  That and their phone support folks know how to talk to electricians.  Ours called the 800 number and they talked through it easily.  
 
If possible DO NOT LET THEM BACKSTAB THE SWITCHES.  Those are a pain in the ass to unplug later.  Have them use the screw terminals instead.  That and backstab connections have their share of reliability woes.  They may balk at this.  Otherwise you'll have to cut the wire and re-strip the insulation a bit when you replace them.  Trivial, I know, but it's worth considering.
 
Scenes are hard to plan until you've lived in the space.  This becomes a factor for keypad engraving.  It's often wise to go with keypads that can have their engraving done after the fact.  I've changed my scenes a number of times and I'm almost ready to commit to keypad engraving.  This after TWO YEARS in the house.  Heh.
 
One suggestion, if possible add an extra position in the wall boxes next to the 'main entrances' for a keypad.  Yes, you can get away with using a hybrid keypad that acts as both a dimmer and a keypad.  But in my experience it's more convenient to allow for lighting loads to be controlled directly, not just via a button on keypad.   By 'main entrances' I mean the doors that will get the most frequent use as regular entry/exit doors.  This way you'll have a place for buttons like 'All Off' and potentially a toggle for Vacation or other 'whole house' kinds of modes.
 
Changing to a larger box is trivial for an electrician.  Especially if there's no drywall up.  Doing it after the fact is a lot more hassle.  Just avoid going to larger than a 4-gang box as it becomes tricky to get bigger faceplates.
 
Speaking of faceplates, have you chosen them yet?  Personally I like the Claro screw-less kind from Lutron.  Again, a little more spendy but the look is nice.  That's an easy retrofit later and that's what I've been doing.  Just know that sometimes different faceplates will leave larger or smaller impressions when the walls get painted.  Some of the cheap wall plates are large and rounded and you'd end up with a gap around them in the paint if/when you went with something else later.
 All good suggestions.  I'm heading out there shortly and will speak with the electricians.   They are very friendly and accommodating.   Yesterday they were finishing up the kitchen recessed lighting.  Sheet rock is still a way out as the plumber has lots to do.
 
Those Claro faceplates are much nicer.   Pretty sure we are using them in high visibility locations like the kitchen.    I'll think about other places.  They put in a LOT of outlets and switches.
 
The Russound controller arrived today.   I'll have t play with that a bit.
 
-Russ
 
Frunple said:
Neutral everywhere!!! Tell the electricians that every day.
 
I'll mention that.  Don't all romex have a neutral wire?
How does the slave get power if you take out the 3-way.   I guess I need to understand a 3-way circuit better.
 
--Russ
 
Bzncrewjr said:
I'll mention that.  Don't all romex have a neutral wire?
How does the slave get power if you take out the 3-way.   I guess I need to understand a 3-way circuit better.
 
No, it wasn't uncommon to run hot and neutral up to the light fixture directly.  And then to run a two conductor cable down to the light switch (aka a 'switch leg').  This hasn't been a recommended practice for a while (at least a decade) and most jurisdictions no longer allow it.  But it's sometimes cheaper/easier for electricians so they may try to take that path.  Don't let them.
 
There's various web pages online that discuss multi-way switches.  Search a bit and see which explanations make the most sense to you.  But basically they all depend on one of the locations being 'in charge' of the lights (this is known as the 'load').  The rest are all working with a 'traveler' wire that extends from the main switch.  In their simplest form you can have just a two wire cable going them.  This is also why folks strongly recommend that ALL wall switch locations have a neutral, regardless of their use as an accessory to a 3-way.  As in, a single gang box whose only purpose is to be a slave part of a 3-way MIGHT get set up with just two wire from the main.  Don't let them do that.
 
Be mindful that the plumber doesn't make a mess of how wiring needed to run.  I've seen/heard horror stories.  Basically each trade only looks out for their minimum best interest, and to hell with the rest.  Lots of potential for shenanigans.
 
Once you have everything in place BE SURE to go around the WHOLE HOUSE and take digital pictures.  Take a LOT OF THEM.  Walk each room and snap pictures of everything.  Think of it in terms of needing to use them later to discern just where something was run inside the wall.  Like free chases for later wires, etc.  With luck you'll never need 'em, but they're priceless when you do.
 
Bzncrewjr said:
Those Claro faceplates are much nicer.   Pretty sure we are using them in high visibility locations like the kitchen.    I'll think about other places.  They put in a LOT of outlets and switches.
 
It's staggering when you count them all up.  
 
My point is try to avoid them using something that has a larger profile than what you'd like in the long term.  Some of the cheap plates are a fair bit bigger (the ones with rounded corners).  These will leave behind an uncovered section or will stick-to/and-remove paint when changed later.  Just cheap square plastic ones are better than the big rounded ones.
 
Bzncrewjr said:
The Russound controller arrived today.   I'll have t play with that a bit.
 
Which setup did you get?
 
Bzncrewjr said:
I'll mention that.  Don't all romex have a neutral wire?
How does the slave get power if you take out the 3-way.   I guess I need to understand a 3-way circuit better.
 
--Russ
 
All general home wiring (romex) have a white, black and bare wire, but that doesn't mean they are always attached to the neutral power feed from the breaker box.  The most common annoying case is that power is wired to the light fixture first and then only the hot (black) continues on to the light switch and back to the light on the white wire to form a loop.  The problem is that at the switch you only have one dead lead (white wire for return power/closed loop) and the hot black wire and no real neutral.  I believe electricians are supposed to black tape the white wire to indicate it is technically a hot return and not neutral.  Without actual hot and neutral at the light switch, you won't have any power to operate a upb or zwave light switch.
 
What you hope would be done is power goes to the light switch first, and then up to the light fixture to ensure both hot, neutral and load wires are there at the switch box.  3-ways get more complicated but as long as power goes to the light switch first you're ok.
 
I lucked out and only had one switch that lacked a neutral (aka common) but thankfully it was in a multi gang box and the other switches there had a neutral I could use.
 
To understand what your requirements for UPB are, you could technically get away with using all master switches, you don't actually need slaves in 2,3,4-way lighting.  Slaves are simply cheaper.  That being said, there isn't a whole lot of value in spending the money needlessly either.  Slaves chain off the master in a multi-way lighting setup.  In a basic 3-way, you need one master, and one slave.  There can only be one master because a master switch is what actually turns the light on and off, the other switches just tell it to.  The wiring gets a bit complicated but that is where you would need a multi-meter, the upb/zwave light switch instruction manual and a clear head.  :)
 
Good luck!
 
Steve
 
wkearney99 said:
Which setup did you get?
 
I ran Cat5 and speaker wires to all possible rooms (11 rooms).    I bought a  Russound CAA66L with 6 zones with KPL keypads.    So I'll think about what 6 rooms get sound.   However, this allows me to expand or reconfigure rooms if we find the need.   The exercise room has speaker wires and panel wire, but most likely won't get sound.   
 
I was thinking perhaps I could share rooms with a zone.   eg: The master bedroom and master bath speakers could use the same zone.  Is this possible or am I going to need another amp?
 
--Russ
 
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