Cellular Communications and possible Dual Path

I have read where a lot of providers have sunset 2G in most areas; which seems to make the C3 Cellular Communications Center irrelevant.  The last post I've seen regarding the C3 was from 2015. I was curious what people are using as an alternative/replacement?  I've looked at the Telguard TG-1 Express, but was curious what others are may be using with their OmniPro II.   I'm also curious about dual path solutions.  Just trying to get a feel for what is out there.

Depends on what you're using it for. The only "pro" to the C3 is it's DTMF passthrough, basically no different than a consumer voice grade cellular phone. It's not listed for monitoring purposes. DIY sure, but not UL listed.
 
If you're looking to go true monitoring, there's at least 4 major players. If you're looking for generic DIY based service, I can't truly help you there.

Just wanted to post an update to this.  I ended up installing the Telguard TG-4.  The TG-4 can be used for dual path and can be primary or secondary path.  It was easy to get up and going.  For the most part, once the SIM was activated, it was ready to go out of the box.

toddr said:

Just wanted to post an update to this.  I ended up installing the Telguard TG-4.  The TG-4 can be used for dual path and can be primary or secondary path.  It was easy to get up and going.  For the most part, once the SIM was activated, it was ready to go out of the box.

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TG-4 is not dual path. Cellular only.
 
You can have it as a backup to a POTS connection (NEVER NEVER ON A VOIP LINE!!!) but it's still only going to go a single route (backup if POTS is down only)
 
Dual path would be cell and TCP/IP and generally means the traffic goes on both paths at the same time and is polled at a higher interval than normal (which is why it's allowed for commercial fire alarm).

DELInstallations said:

TG-4 is not dual path. Cellular only.
 
You can have it as a backup to a POTS connection (NEVER NEVER ON A VOIP LINE!!!) but it's still only going to go a single route (backup if POTS is down only)
 
Dual path would be cell and TCP/IP and generally means the traffic goes on both paths at the same time and is polled at a higher interval than normal (which is why it's allowed for commercial fire alarm).

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The NFPA and UL do NOT require dual path for Commercial Fire since 2013 (maybe 2010).  In addition the NFPA and UL do NOT require that alarms etc be transmitted over both paths at the same time.  I think you are confusing the Commercial Fire requirements with the UL1610 Commercial Burg requirements that requires dual reporting.
 
In regards to polling the NFPA and UL permit 60 min supervision on a sole path radio and 6 hour supervision on a dual path communicator with both paths being supervised.  The NFPA and also UL permit the use of Wifi for the TCP/IP path and a few manufacturers offer it.  Personally I am not a fan of the Wifi but its allowed but not required by the NFPA and UL.  
 
Note:  In a combination Commercial Fire/Burg install or just a Commercial Burg install UL requires that the path supervision for one path be 200 seconds and the second path can be 6 mins. 
 
The NFPA nor UL prohibit the use of VOIP lines.  The 2016 NFPA 72 and also UL864 10th Edition (Commercial Fire) now require that the phone lines be verified every 6 hours (previously 24).   

Digger said:

The NFPA and UL do NOT require dual path for Commercial Fire since 2013 (maybe 2010).  In addition the NFPA and UL do NOT require that alarms etc be transmitted over both paths at the same time.  I think you are confusing the Commercial Fire requirements with the UL1610 Commercial Burg requirements that requires dual reporting.
 
In regards to polling the NFPA and UL permit 60 min supervision on a sole path radio and 6 hour supervision on a dual path communicator with both paths being supervised.  The NFPA and also UL permit the use of Wifi for the TCP/IP path and a few manufacturers offer it.  Personally I am not a fan of the Wifi but its allowed but not required by the NFPA and UL.  
 
Note:  In a combination Commercial Fire/Burg install or just a Commercial Burg install UL requires that the path supervision for one path be 200 seconds and the second path can be 6 mins. 
 
The NFPA nor UL prohibit the use of VOIP lines.  The 2016 NFPA 72 and also UL864 10th Edition (Commercial Fire) now require that the phone lines be verified every 6 hours (previously 24). 

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Not too many places have adopted 2016 yet. It's the honest truth.
 
I think you're misunderstanding when I am speaking about DACT and it's requirements vs. a cell primary monitoring solution.
 
There's clearly a different performance model for the applications.
 
2013 requires dual path for a DACT unless the performance criteria is met.
 
DACT requires a backup.(NFPA 2013 8.6.3..2.1.4) or only if the exceptions are met. That section of code clearly defines a secondary transmission method is required unless the exception is met, essentially becoming a sole path.
 
(NFPA 26.6.1, 26.6.3 and A.26.6.1) defines the annunciation requirements and supervision requirements, mainly that they require a redundant path if the supervision times can't be met and annunciated by the host.

DELInstallations said:

Not too many places have adopted 2016 yet. It's the honest truth.
 
I think you're misunderstanding when I am speaking about DACT and it's requirements vs. a cell primary monitoring solution.
 
There's clearly a different performance model for the applications.
 
2013 requires dual path for a DACT unless the performance criteria is met.
 
DACT requires a backup.(NFPA 2013 8.6.3..2.1.4) or only if the exceptions are met. That section of code clearly defines a secondary transmission method is required unless the exception is met, essentially becoming a sole path.
 
(NFPA 26.6.1, 26.6.3 and A.26.6.1) defines the annunciation requirements and supervision requirements, mainly that they require a redundant path if the supervision times can't be met and annunciated by the host.

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Actually NFPA 2013 and 2016 are more widely adopted then you seem to be aware of.  If I remember correctly you are in CT and they are about a decade behind the NFPA which is probably why you think its not adopted. While CT happens to be way behind the rest of the country, however, I did work with an installer in Hartford a few months ago and the CT State Fire Marshals Office and they permitted a Sole Path radio to be installed since the cost of the copper line would have been over $4k to the newly constructed premise and a Sole Path Radio is more reliable than the aging copper POTS lines anyway.
 
If there is a DACT line involved then its not really considered Dual Path allowing the relaxed supervision due to the higher reliability of Other Technologies over POTS.  The NFPA will probably forbid DACTs in a few more years as the infastructure is starting to crumble and no provider wants to dump in millions of dollars.
 
You are a great installer I am sure but I have 22 years as a Compliance Engineer and I have UL Listed many Cell and IP Communicators for the US and other markets.  Currently have 12 Dual Path models at UL right now (2 or 4 more to be submitted shortly to ETL) and have Listed 14 Sole Path Radios as well as a SDR (Software Defined Receiver For Commercial Fire/Burg) in the past year or so with UL. 

Yes, my state has been behind the times with adoption of the new 72. That's been known for years and the boards have had specific reasons why they refused to adopt later versions and I've also installed those items you cite, specifically for the state fire marshal. They're already gearing up for 2016.
 
I didn't argue the point or compliance, just stated when and where a redundant path is required and when one is not. It's only when the exceptions are met or the AHJ allows them, which is what I stated. I believe in your scanning of what I posted, you inserted some words into my statement that simply put, were not there. Sole path communication has clear cut performance criteria that must be met.
 
I do disagree with the statement widespread adoption of 2016. It's only been out a year and how many municipalities and state entities do you know of that can get through and adopt code cycle within a year of it's release.Very few....California maybe? They've always adopted early (good and bad) and probably are already discussing adopting 2019 next year.
 
And to counter your engineering statement, I've got 23 years in the field and hold a NICET IV in fire and NICET ABC CCTV classification in addition to carrying a LV contractor license within my state, MA and RI. Also worked within technical engineering for one of the leading multi-vendor manufacturers that is headquartered within my state. 

DELInstallations said:

Not too many places have adopted 2016 yet. It's the honest truth.
 
I think you're misunderstanding when I am speaking about DACT and it's requirements vs. a cell primary monitoring solution.
 
There's clearly a different performance model for the applications.
 
2013 requires dual path for a DACT unless the performance criteria is met.
 
DACT requires a backup.(NFPA 2013 8.6.3..2.1.4) or only if the exceptions are met. That section of code clearly defines a secondary transmission method is required unless the exception is met, essentially becoming a sole path.
 
(NFPA 26.6.1, 26.6.3 and A.26.6.1) defines the annunciation requirements and supervision requirements, mainly that they require a redundant path if the supervision times can't be met and annunciated by the host.

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You can throw out all of the clauses you want you dont seem to understand them.  I understand your an installer but the hardware and software design requirements do not seem to be your thing.   Please dont mislead people to think some things are required when they are not. Again the NFPA does NOT require Dual reporting and if your using cell or IP you dont need dual path you are permitted to use it as Sole Path with 60 min supervision.  No matter what the supervision used it is always require to be annunciated single or dual path at the premise and CS so DACT has nothing to do with it. 

Digger said:

You can throw out all of the clauses you want you dont seem to understand them.  I understand your an installer but the hardware and software design requirements do not seem to be your thing.   Please dont mislead people to think some things are required when they are not. Again the NFPA does NOT require Dual reporting and if your using cell or IP you dont need dual path you are permitted to use it as Sole Path with 60 min supervision.  No matter what the supervision used it is always require to be annunciated single or dual path at the premise and CS so DACT has nothing to do with it. 

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And you just provided the backup to my statement as I was saying all along (without slinging mud as you are).
 
The basic facts, which you are arguing, is that sole path is just that. The point I am making is sole path is NOT permissible UNLESS it meets ALL the criteria that I cited. If it doesn't meet the requirements, then it's either the AHJ to sign off or other items need to be installed to meet the what is spelled out as required within code. Even the white sheets provide the basics for compliance settings for either 2010 or 2013......
 
I am also not and have not said that the communications path MUST transmit on both for every signal, but a primary and backup on NON-SOLE PATH systems. If you don't meet the requirements, I don't know of many AHJ's that wouldn't require a backup of some sort.