Arming in STAY vs. AWAY

System M1G
HW Ver 0.13
Boot Ver 3.3.2
Firmware Ver 5.1.8
 
Z1
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 1
Force Armable
 
Z2
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 1
Force Armable
 
Z17
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 2
Force Armable
 
Area 1
Exit 1 60
Entry 1 30
Exit 2 60
Entry 2 255
Auto Stay Mode after exit if no violation is checked.
Restart Exit Timers is checked.
 
If Z1 is violated (door open) and I arm in AWAY using a user code then close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in STAY mode, I expected to arm in AWAY since Z1 changed from violated to normal during Exit delay.
 
If Z1 is normal and I arm in AWAY then exit thru Z1 and close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in AWAY mode, as expected.
 
If Z1 is violated and I arm in AWAY using a user code then wait until after the Exit Delay expires to close Z1 the system will arm in AWAY.
 
Same results for Z1, Z2, Z17 individually.
 
Can I change the programming to get the desired AWAY arming in example 1 and leave Auto Stay Mode after no exit checked or am I asking for two mutually exclusive things?
 
Thanks,
Jabran

jab said:

System M1G
HW Ver 0.13
Boot Ver 3.3.2
Firmware Ver 5.1.8
 
Z1
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 1
Force Armable
 
Z2
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 1
Force Armable
 
Z17
Def 01 = Burglar Entry/Exit 2
Force Armable
 
Area 1
Exit 1 60
Entry 1 30
Exit 2 60
Entry 2 255
Auto Stay Mode after exit if no violation is checked.
Restart Exit Timers is checked.
 
If Z1 is violated (door open) and I arm in AWAY using a user code then close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in STAY mode, I expected to arm in AWAY since Z1 changed from violated to normal during Exit delay.
 
If Z1 is normal and I arm in AWAY then exit thru Z1 and close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in AWAY mode, as expected.
 
If Z1 is violated and I arm in AWAY using a user code then wait until after the Exit Delay expires to close Z1 the system will arm in AWAY.
 
Same results for Z1, Z2, Z17 individually.
 
Can I change the programming to get the desired AWAY arming in example 1 and leave Auto Stay Mode after no exit checked or am I asking for two mutually exclusive things?
 
Thanks,
Jabran

Click to expand...

 
I think the problem you are having is that when you arm Away mode, the M1 expects to see an entry door open and then close (i.e. go from secure, to non-secure, and then back to secure again).  By having the door open before you arm the system, it doesn't see the full sequence, and so assumes that no one has exited, and thus goes into stay mode due to the Auto-stay option.
 
You might be able to work around this by writing a rule:
 
WHENEVER ZONE 001 BECOMES SECURE
  THEN ARM AREAS(1) TO AWAY IMMEDIATELY
 
This could still conflict with the Auto Stay option if the rule executes before the exit time expires, but if it does, you could get around it by writing the rule to first turn on a phantom output, say for 90 seconds (long enough for the exit time to expire), then use a second rule to force away when the output turns off.
 
There could also be a complication if you re-enter the house during the exit delay since closing the door the first time would have already triggered the phantom output.

I wonder what would happen if you made Z1 bypassable?

I'd look at the exit delay restart attribute.
 
Otherwise, I think RAL has it correct. The bypass returnable (force-arm) is going to be causing the issue here. The system doesn't see the E/E zone trip triggering the system to change states. 
 
I probably wouldn't go through the rules aspect personally. Some things are sometimes better left as hard coded in the panel for false alarm reduction purposes. Having the system arm AWAY with doors open seems like it would open up the false alarm possibility.

I don't want Z1 bypassable since it's a door and I have other zones set to bypassable and I sometimes use Bypass 999 to bypass all bypassable zones that are violated if I did that Z1 would get bypassed with it.

jab said:

I don't want Z1 bypassable since it's a door and I have other zones set to bypassable and I sometimes use Bypass 999 to bypass all bypassable zones that are violated if I did that Z1 would get bypassed with it.

Click to expand...

I don't see the force arm appeal here.....are you talking about a non-standard zone, such as a OHD?
 
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
Force armable was formerly known in the industry as "BYPASS RETURNABLE" and still is with other manufacturers.
 
The point being, normally you would NOT arm the system with E/E points faulted. The system never sees the E/E point change state as it's bypassed during the delay time (E/E ignored globally by system), so it'll always default to stay.
 
I'd look at exit delay restart. That's probably what you're going to need to use.

jab said:

If Z1 is violated (door open) and I arm in AWAY using a user code then close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in STAY mode, I expected to arm in AWAY since Z1 changed from violated to normal during Exit delay.
 
If Z1 is normal and I arm in AWAY then exit thru Z1 and close Z1 during the exit delay the system will arm in AWAY mode, as expected.

Click to expand...

 
As I understand things, this is how the Arm Away works, as RAL explained.  I have a similar issue.  When I exit my house to the garage, if there is not the close/open/close sequence with that door (Z3) during the countdown, AND an close/open/close or open/close with 1 of the force exits (Z1 & Z2), my ELK will only arm Stay.  Z3 does not alarm if in Stay mode, but does for Away or Vacation modes.
 
Consequently, I cannot arm the system Away remotely.  It will only arm in the Stay mode. Same results if I want to arm Vacation remotely.  Sometimes I need to do this if a neighbor or house checker fails to follow the proper arm sequence.
 
As a partial workaround when on vacation, I created a counter in my ISY that counts the number of times Z3 is violated each day.  And at the end of the day, if the counter is zero, then at least my Vacation mode programs will kick in, even if the ELK is Stay. I wonder if I can incorporate a form of RAL's suggestion using that counter to get the ELK into the right mode:
 
WHENEVER ZONE 001 BECOMES SECURE
  THEN ARM AREAS(1) TO VACATION IMMEDIATELY
 

jab said:

 

Click to expand...

I wouldn't generally suggest the auto-stay feature for most applications.....it was added for CP-01 compliance, same as the exit delay restart feature. Basically, trying to protect ourselves from ourselves for false alarm purposes (why would someone arm the system away instead of stay if that's how they're intending on using the system......?)