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#1 pete_c

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 04:57 PM

Curiosity question.

 

I have a 200 AMP fuse panel.  Three wires coming in from the top.

 

Is the electric coming in two phases or is it one phase split to two wires called split phase?



#2 42etus

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 05:33 PM

Most likely it's single phase with two "hot" wires and a single neutral wire. The three wires carry 240 volts between the two "hot" wires and 120 volts between either hot wire and the neutral wire. Usually the hot wires are larger (but not always) than the neutral. The neutral wire should be marked some how to differentiate it from the other two. White or yellow markings are commonly used for this purpose.

 

I have seen 3-phase in residential situations, but that is very uncommon.

 

All this assumes you're in the USA and we're talking about a residential application



#3 RAL

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 06:32 PM

You most likely have a single phase, 3-wire service entrance, where the neutral is the center tap of the transformer.

 

If by some chance you truly had 2 phase service, you would see 208V between the two hot wires, rather than the 240V you get with single phase, 3-wire.

 

Here's a good reference: https://ctlsys.com/s...s_and_voltages/



#4 pete_c

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Posted 10 May 2018 - 07:18 PM

Thanks guys.

 

Purchased a small commercial APC (PMP1X-A) surge protector and the diagram label states it is one phase and two hot 2 wires which got me a bit confused.

 

I did not know that APC is now owned by Schneider Electric.

 

Attached File  apc.jpg   86.7K   6 downloads

 

It is the same as my other surge protector wiring.

 

It has also two ground connections.  One to the BUS and another for earth ground. 



#5 jpmargis

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:54 AM

The installation instructions are quite clear!  It does not have two ground connections.  Do not mistake the neutral connection for a ground connection.  They are different.  The ground wire does not normally carry current; the neutral does.



#6 pete_c

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:14 AM

Thank you jpmargis.

 

There is a white wire for the ground bus and a green wire for ground.

 

In my panel I have a ground strap (large wire in a conduit) also going to the ground bus inside of the panel.

 

The Eaton Protector TVSS had two black and one white cable.

 

What do I do with the green cable?  Should I connect it to the fuse panel metal?

 

Here is the diagram on the installation sheet.

 

Attached File  wiring.jpg   105.17K   14 downloads

 

Recomendation on the instruction sheet is dual one handle 50 AMP tandem breaker and all I have here is dual 30 AMP tandem breaker which should work.



#7 BraveSirRobbin

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 12:38 PM

Pete:  Seems to me that you wire this like the old X-10 coupler/repeater units.  You have a dual tandem breaker, one per 'pole'.  The black wires go into each tandem breaker.  Make sure it's a tandum so you know you have each pole (L1, L2) going to the surge protector.

 

There should be a bus that has all the white (neutral) wires running to it.  Connect the white wire to this bus.

 

There should also be a ground bus (bare copper wires from all the circuits most likely).  Connect the green wire to this bus.

 

Attached File  Breaker Box.jpg   88.62K   13 downloads

 

Note that the Neutral bus and the Ground bus are tied together inside the main breaker panel.  

 

Let's see if others here agree with my assumption before you install though!


Edited by BraveSirRobbin, 11 May 2018 - 12:48 PM.


#8 pete_c

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 01:35 PM

Thank you BSR.

 

Note this is in the midwest and all electric here is in 1/2" conduit and all switch / outlet boxes are metal with metal mudplates.

 

Yeah here three large wires come in from the outside.  One in the middle and two on each side.  Off to the side there is a very large ground strap coming in from conduit to the same middle large wire metal plate.  The other side of the strap is connected at the copper water line before the water meter with another strap going to the other side of the water meter.  From this metal plate are two neutral bars on each side with the white electric wires connected on both sides.  There is no separate ground bar.  Panel is a Siemens circa 2008.

 

Will take pictures. 



#9 Neurorad

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 02:11 PM

You'll want to keep that green ground wire as short and straight as possible.

"• Ensure conductor lengths are as short and straight as possible for best performance. Do not coil excess wire. The SPD functions best if all bends in wires are rounded, ideally to a 4” radius. Hard 90 degree bend will reduce efficiency. Cut all leads to the correct length. Do not coil excess leads."



#10 kwschumm

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 02:33 PM

You'll want to keep that green ground wire as short and straight as possible.

"• Ensure conductor lengths are as short and straight as possible for best performance. Do not coil excess wire. The SPD functions best if all bends in wires are rounded, ideally to a 4” radius. Hard 90 degree bend will reduce efficiency. Cut all leads to the correct length. Do not coil excess leads."

 

Where did you hear this about line voltage bend radius?

 

AFAIK that sort of limitation is more of a high frequency effect for communication lines, but I've been wrong before.

 

Keeping it short, most definitely.


Edited by kwschumm, 11 May 2018 - 02:34 PM.


#11 cobra

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 05:06 PM

Probably a guideline, as surge energy could be high frequency.

#12 pete_c

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 06:10 AM

Yeah so removed the Eaton Protector TVSS. 

 

The Eaton Protector was using 4 wires.  2 Line (black) to breakers.  1 White to neutral bus bar and 1 green and yellow wire which was also connected to neutral bus bar.

 

The new APC will be connected same way to panel using same two breakers - tandem - only footprint is much smaller and I need the space now.

 

IE: installed more direct to fuse outlets for the X10 and UPB PIMs (2 X 2 there now). Outlets and serial cables.

 

Moving my HAI UPB repeater one hole up to fit the APC in area. Will take pictures.



#13 pete_c

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 07:00 AM

Starting endeavor this morning....will take pictures...thunderstorm this morning..and later move it to a blog.

 

Endeavor is installation of an APC (PMP1X-A) Surge Protector - side fuse panel mounted - baby steps.

 

Note if you are not familiar with your fuse panel or have never done anything in your fuse panel or do not like doing anything electrical in your home then personally I would recommend hiring a professional to do this. 

 

It is recommended to shut off main house breaker (all electricity going to your home).

 

1 - removed Eaton TVSS - 4 wires (2 line and 2 neutral).  2 Line are connected to a dual 30 AMP tandem breaker.

This was done last week.

Attached File  eaton.jpg   15.21K   4 downloads

 

2 - removed HAI UPB repeater - 3 wires - 2 line - 2 breakers and 1 neutral to bus bar.  Easy peasy.

Attached File  UPB Repeater.jpg   25.59K   4 downloads

 

Moved it to a new hole on the side of the fuse panel and reconnected it to breakers and neutral.

 

3 - installed the APC PMP1XA surge protector in old HAI UPB Repeater hole.  Pulled wires to side.

Wires are long and APC Surge protector is adjacent to the two 30 AMP tandem breakers / neutral bar.

So will be cutting the 4 wires down a bit.

Attached File  APC-PMP1XA.jpg   47.76K   4 downloads

Accidently hit a main ingress wire (one of three on the top) with a screwdriver (with breaker off) and it melted the tip of the screwdriver.  Big spark.

 

Attached File  screwdriver.jpg   26.16K   5 downloads

 

Taking a short break now.  Thunderstorm is continuing.  All day rain weather forecast for today.

 

4 - Did a trial run on the APC surge protector to make sure it was working (LEDs light up).  I have not shortened up the wires such that I plugged in the 40 amp tandem breaker on the bottom and connected the two neutral leads to the bottom of the neutral bus bar.  Switched on the breakers and LEDs light.

 

Attached File  APC - ON.jpg   40.79K   15 downloads

5  - Wanting a short run from the APC two neutral / ground wires moving  and rearranging neutrals moving them down two posts.  Will do one  neutral wire at a time as they are 10-12 guage. Next cutting the two APC Neutral wires shortening them and installing them on top to neutral posts.

 

Attached File  neutralmove8.jpg   98.46K   13 downloads
 

Baby steps here.

 

6 - Install 40 AMP tandem breaker and connect two APC black line wires to 40 AMP breaker (about 3.5" or so) and label breaker and APC surge protector.  Note that the breaker is in OFF mode.

 

Attached File  APCFinal.jpg   58.66K   14 downloads



#14 Neurorad

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:08 PM

Why replace the Eaton TVSS SPD?  You think it may be degraded, and no longer useful?



#15 pete_c

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 08:02 AM

I replaced the Eaton because I needed the space adjacent to the fuse panel.  Historically the Eaton TVSS was the only hardware adjacent to the panel.   It still functioned just fine.

 

Here is a picture of it removed.  It is a massively sized device.

 

Attached File  protector3.jpg   64.61K   3 downloads

 

I was originally going to purchase the tandem breaker style surge protector.

 

Really though I should not have much of anything adjacent to the panel.

 

Over the years have added more single outlets with their own fuse breakers for multiple power line controllers which are X10 and UPB.

 

Also added an outdoor surge protector on the outdoor AC compressor switch a while ago.  Really a PITA to rewire everything for the surge protector.  Did lose my compressor one day during a storm.  Caught fire (freaky thing) and melted the contactors and the copper pressure lines and back shorted the 240VAC lines.

 

IE: the Volp dual phased TW-523 emulator is a tad smaller than the Eaton TVSS.  The Eaton TVSS wires had to be extended for the box to sit next to the fuse panel some 6 inches or so.  Thinking that the APC should suffice with it's 40 KVa per line max.






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