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Any smart Fire/Smoke detectors compatible with Alarm wiring?


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#1 hgupta1

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 11:14 AM

I am in the process of replacing smoke detectors.   I like the features of Halo+ and Nest.  Specifically I like that they announce the location of the fire, and alert your phones.   But I also like that ones connected to the alarm panel are monitored.   Are there any that do both?  



#2 SterlingDonnelly

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 05:03 PM

Do you have an existing security system? If so, which one?

You can certainly have an alarm system with smoke detectors connected that will be able to alert you to the specific smoke zone that was triggered and have them be monitored.



#3 ano

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 01:24 AM

If your fire alarm goes off, you want the fire department to be notified first. The alarm company will call you next, so that part is there already. Most panels have multiple fire zones, so you can get some notification, and with voice enabled, it can tell you the zone. The problem is most panels only have 2 or 4 fire zones, so most people combine detectors on one zone.  But how big is your house where if your home, you can't figure out where the fire is?  Also if you really wanted to, nothing stops you from using both speaking wifi smoke detectors, and alarm connected fire detectors, but NEVER connect a fire alarm to a panel if it wasn't designed for that.



#4 MichaelHarris259

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 10:40 AM

Its modern age and you dont need any alarm because the fire/smoke detectors already has an alarm integrated inside it and also it send you notification on your smartphone when it detects.



#5 RAL

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 11:12 AM

Its modern age and you dont need any alarm because the fire/smoke detectors already has an alarm integrated inside it and also it send you notification on your smartphone when it detects.

 

Except the smart smoke detectors don't call the fire department, which is a much more important capability than sending you notification on your cell phone. 



#6 Linwood

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 12:34 PM

The problem is most panels only have 2 or 4 fire zones, so most people combine detectors on one zone.  But how big is your house where if your home, you can't figure out where the fire is?  

 

Well... first, as someone was kind enough to point out to me (maybe DELinstalation?   Not sure), you need all smokes to sound their own alarm whenever any smoke goes into an alarm condition.  That requires quite a bit more effort if there are many zones.

 

That said, I am glad I did.  I had a spell when the (junk) smokes I originally installed were giving trouble alerts, and it was nice to be able to figure out which was which quickly.

 

I also think it's useful if you ever have false alarms to know which alarm went off -- not always exactly easy if you have 8 alarms blaring at the same time.  Maybe there's a different light or something, maybe not, maybe at 2am it's harder to figure that out before you reset them and then start wondering (these things rarely happen when you are wide awake). 

 

So there are some serious complexity and potentially cost (especially if you pay someone) to having each smoke in a zone, it's not exactly a no-brainer to combine them all either. It does merit thinking about.



#7 jeditekunum

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 04:04 PM

I've been beaten down a bit in other threads for my desire for a better smoke/co system. I share the opinion that the current crop are either terribly outdated and inflexible OR are the typical modern fad of being RF based and acting like its the only smart thing in the home.
 
There is a class of detector that is "addressable" meaning that the panel knows exactly which one is complaining. I believe the Honeywell Vista series is one. The "pros" amongst us advise against such a commercial-grade product in a home. They are fairly expensive and they do require a full blown commercial fire panel.
 
My partial solution is to deploy System Sensor detectors (COSMO-2W and 2WTA-B ) and a couple of panel interfaces (COSMOD-2W) so that I can at least have separate zones for each floor (I have 2). The simultaneous sounding will be accomplished by the "bell" inputs on the COSMOD-2W being wired together. My home is being built right now so I haven't installed yet nor have I selected a panel.



#8 MichaelHarris259

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 01:10 PM

yes there are alot of security companies that are working on smart fire detectors. I have acquired services from perfect home defense and i am quite satisfied. If you live in united states then i think its the best choice you could avail.



#9 jeditekunum

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 04:17 PM

yes there are alot of security companies that are working on smart fire detectors. I have acquired services from perfect home defense and i am quite satisfied. If you live in united states then i think its the best choice you could avail.

 

Its a fail as far as I'm concerned. Wireless. Battery. Another toy.

 

21st century requirements are:

 

- Wired with central battery backup (OPTION of wireless and local battery is fine too)

- Smoke, CO, heat, and maybe even rate-of-rise

- All-sound for code compliance

- Identifiable alarm source down to the detector

- Self-monitoring via SMS, email, apps

- IP/Cell reporting to OPTIONAL monitoring service

- notification via published protocols to ANY automation system (WITHOUT CLOUD SERVICE)

 

From a technology perspective, trivial! Why isn't anybody making this?


Edited by jeditekunum, 25 June 2018 - 04:19 PM.


#10 Work2Play

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 01:40 AM

While not wired, what do you think of the Elk two-way wireless smokes?  They have the sound-all, individual zone definition (easy since they're wireless), rate-of-rise, etc.  I'm a little tempted - I need to replace all mine... either that, or I'll do the old school smoke/CO combos... but I need to do something soon.



#11 jeditekunum

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 08:05 AM

While not wired, what do you think of the Elk two-way wireless smokes?  They have the sound-all, individual zone definition (easy since they're wireless), rate-of-rise, etc.  I'm a little tempted - I need to replace all mine... either that, or I'll do the old school smoke/CO combos... but I need to do something soon.

 

I know it depends on the local fire codes but in many places they would not be allowed. For my situation, Minnesota and new construction, they would definitely not pass inspection. My understanding of NEC, which most states follow, is that smokes must be 1) wired to A/C power, 2) have battery backup, and 3) all sound at the same time. It looks to me like the Elk doesn't support A/C power.

 

The Nest detector comes in a version with A/C power. From what I can tell, it doesn't use the all-sound interconnect wire. Don't know if the RF for all-sound is code compliant. But then you have the problem of integrating Nest with other automation.

 

Its just shocking that nobody can produce a smart product, with generic integration capability, that also meets code. Just support AC as the primary power and use the 3rd wire simultaneous sound method. Provide a relay module that bridges that 3rd wire to an alarm panel. Use RF for supplemental information communication - telling the panel which detector, maintenance, etc. It wouldn't be difficult.

 

In general I'm not in favor of proprietary detectors locked to a panel manufacturer.



#12 pete_c

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 08:20 AM

Are there any that do both?

 

I have read that there is. 

 

That said contractor installed what needed to be installed and I installed autonmous stuff and that was that.

 

Here in the midwest installed zoned wired smokes next to the contractor installed 120VAC smokes. 

 

It was a PITA to do and I will never do this again.

 

The appearance of the zoned smokes was a bit low on the WAF for maybe one day.

 

That said construction codes / electrical codes here are maybe 50 years behind.  I doubt very much that they will be catching up anytime soon.



#13 Work2Play

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 09:30 AM

I think this was literally the last thing I read before I went to bed last night...  This morning, at quite an untimely hour, I awoke to the interconnected smoke alarms going off throughout the house.

 

We just moved in here 4 weeks ago - so anything is possible - it could've been a real fire.  I have 5 young kids (ages 10 and under) all on the lower level (walkout basement), and my wife and I are on the main floor (>6,000sq ft house).  Queue the frantic run through the house, explaining to the kids what they should be doing in this event, while I'm checking every room and utility closet to make sure there isn't an actual problem, and hoping to see the red light on the offending detector.  Sure enough, we only got two long strings of beeps then everything stopped, and no detectors were showing errors.

 

I knew that, with this being a 20-year old house with original detectors and no CO detectors that I'd be updating those - but apparently that's bubbled to the top of the priority list...  We'll see what my research finds today.  I sure would've liked to know which area to check first.



#14 pete_c

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:05 AM

Here had an issue once with one of a few smokes installed in the ceiling of the second floor of a two story home.  

 

One day while traveling for business wife called about a middle of the night smoke detector going off.  She did find out which one it was and I looked at it and noticed that the metal electrical box in the ceiling was full of water (condensation issue).  I replaced the smoke detector (120VAC) and insulated the top of the metal electrical box in the attic with expandable foam which fixed the issue.  I did do some infrastructure changes afterwards to the attic adding more ventilation and installing insulated ducts for the bathrooms (8 feet or so long?) as I had a drippy bathroom fan issue on the second floor.

 

First time and only time I had ever seen this.

 

I always have assumed that the purpose of smokes / CO detectors in a house was to protect whomever is in the house at the time and that works with the currently implemented used 120VAC sensors.  It does save lives.  Doesn't really matter where or what triggers as the object here is to leave the house as soon as possible.   I am aware of folks tethered and sleeping with their cell phones these days would probably ignore the smoke detector sound over the sound of their phone these days though.



#15 TurboSam

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 06:24 PM

@W2P, any update on your research?

 

I was looking at old smoke detector posts and found your post in this thread on the Roost battery in 2015  --  which made me wonder if you moved just to avoid the smoke detector research, only to have it follow you.... :) 

 

I've had a string of chirping, beeping, or screeching from smokes that are close to (if not over) the ten year mark, and so I am looking for a complete house refresh in something battery operated and standalone.  It's a hundred year old house so hard-wiring for smokes in all the necessary places is not really an option (though I have an Elk and I toyed a year or so ago with the idea of putting in a System Sensor COSMOD2W before I concluded is was beyond my DIY comfort zone for a life/safety issue).  Pretty sure I want dual sensor smokes (with separate CO detectors since there don't seem to be dual sensor smoke detection and CO detection in one unit), and not convinced that the 10 year lithium battery option real works that well (since it was the one beeping the most after just two years).

 

I've looked at the Elk two way wireless but would need to upgrade my wireless receiver which would them make obsolete some (most?)of my other wireless inputs.

 

So if  you or anyone else has any thoughts on standalone smokes, I'd love to get current thoughts.

 

Thanks.






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