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Can smoke detectors work with the Elk Input expander board? What about detectors with a sounder?


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#1 ghurty

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 03:14 PM

Can smoke detectors work with the Elk Input expander board? What about detectors with a sounder? I want to put the main unit in the basement and the expander board on the 3rd floor. Also what is the maximum length of the wire connecting the input expander to the main unit? I know it would have to be 4 wire unit instead of a 2 wire

 

Thank you


Edited by ghurty, 22 June 2018 - 03:30 PM.


#2 RAL

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 05:49 PM

4-wire smokes can be connected to any zone on the M1, including input expander zones.  They can have sounders.

 

The input expander connects to the M1 data bus, which has a maximum length of 4000 feet total on the 2 branches that can connect to it.   If you are wiring devices (keypads, input and output expanders, etc) through home runs using Cat5/6 cable to a DBH, then each cable counts for twice its actual length.

 

Connecting smoke detectors to separate zones creates a lot of added complexity.   You'll have an easier time connecting all the smokes in a daisy chain to a single zone.



#3 mousehunt

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 07:55 PM

Yes, you can. I replaced my old panel with an M1. In order to reuse existing sensors, I mounted the M1 in a more convenient location and put the expansion board where the old panel was.

Since the expansion board does not provide power, I ran +12V and common from the M1 to the board. Used the +12V SAUX supply if you want the detectors to be supervised.

The old panel (professionally installed) had each detector on a separate zone and I replicated that.

#4 Work2Play

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Posted 23 June 2018 - 12:39 AM

just to throw this out there, if you have smokes hooked to an expander board, then the run to the expander is supposed to be connected via fire-rated wire, otherwise that's a weak link.



#5 Linwood

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 08:16 AM

4-wire smokes can be connected to any zone on the M1, including input expander zones.  They can have sounders.

 

The input expander connects to the M1 data bus, which has a maximum length of 4000 feet total on the 2 branches that can connect to it.   If you are wiring devices (keypads, input and output expanders, etc) through home runs using Cat5/6 cable to a DBH, then each cable counts for twice its actual length.

 

Connecting smoke detectors to separate zones creates a lot of added complexity.   You'll have an easier time connecting all the smokes in a daisy chain to a single zone.

 

Note that I've been told (and it makes sense) that you have to connect them in such a way that when one smoke sounds, they all sound, to be code compliant (at least in some places).  I did this with reversing relays and a lot of extra wiring in the panel, basically a small bus that I could reverse to sound them all at once.

 

Yes you CAN connect them straight to individual zones, but only the one that is triggered, and the M1G's outputs, will be triggered then, not the other smokes.



#6 upstatemike

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 08:48 AM

I have never been comfortable with the single zone solution. Even a trivial installation of say 2 floors plus basement and garage and associated stairwells can quickly get you to 15 detectors or more (assuming 4 per floor to cover each isolated space). That means a lot of running around and precious time lost to determine where the alarm is coming from.

 

I also question at what point built-in sounders become impractical and common audible would be better? I am fond of motorized bells because they use an order of magnitude less current than any other type of sounder but also recognize the value of voice alarms to instantly identify where the fire is.



#7 jeditekunum

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 09:18 AM

I have never been comfortable with the single zone solution.

 

++++

 

Stone-age technology and "code".



#8 Linwood

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 10:31 AM

++++

 

Stone-age technology and "code".

 

Though it is worth remembering that much of code comes from lives lost to teach someone a lesson a long time ago. 

 

"Code" is a collection of "do not do X" often without the "why".  Sometimes the "why" is obsolete, sometimes it is politics hidden in regulations, but sometimes it is niche cases learned the hard way.



#9 upstatemike

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 10:55 AM

Another concern I have with single zone fire is that in case of an "unresetable device failure" you have to disable all fire protection until you can get it fixed. I like being able to bypass the bad zone (usually 1 floor) while everything else stays active until repairs can be made.



#10 jeditekunum

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 12:42 PM

Though it is worth remembering that much of code comes from lives lost to teach someone a lesson a long time ago. 

 

"Code" is a collection of "do not do X" often without the "why".  Sometimes the "why" is obsolete, sometimes it is politics hidden in regulations, but sometimes it is niche cases learned the hard way.

 

Sure. What I meant is that code is very very slow to adapt as technology evolves. For example, the crap A/C power + 1 common wire for simultaneous sounding as the "common" residential wiring is an extreme limiter. Understandable that it is one mode necessary to support a very large number of existing installations. However, there should be a newer, more capable, wired standard for use in new construction.

 

Without it, we are left with RF-based products like Nest that add all their smarts through a proprietary cloud/app/whatever that may, or may not (more likely), provide an interface to other automation components. And still doesn't address the problem of batteries scattered around.

 

The use of commercial detectors/panels is a tough path for residential. The low-end commercial (non-addressable) gets some of the desired features (centralized battery, crude zones, etc). Addressable requires high-end commercial equipment. All this is simply because the industry is protecting a high-margin environment where mediocre last-century technology still demands a premium price.

 

This is the 21st century. Fully addressable detectors with centralized battery and interface to other automation systems should be the norm for new construction. And it shouldn't cost the obscene amount that high-end commercial does.



#11 jeditekunum

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 12:51 PM

BTW, you can use 2-wire with zones yet have all of them sound. The COSMOD-2W interface provides just that. Smoke, CO, and maintenance all have their own zone connection for the panel and the output of the panel drives smoke or CO sounding. These outputs can drive multiple COSMOD-2W modules so you can get rough zone indication but still have everything sound for code.

 

I'm doing this in my new construction project. One COSMOD-2W for each floor and therefore 3 zones for each floor (smoke, CO, maint).

 

Not to the granularity of knowing the exact detector that is triggered but helps a bit. And gets rid of batteries everywhere.



#12 ghurty

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 12:42 PM

Thank you for all the answers.






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