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Need advice on installing Elk M1


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#1 Christopherjenk

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 09:02 PM

I ordered an Elk M1 kit and a spare keypad. I'm replacing an old Ademco 4120 that was installed when my house was built. It looks like I should be able to take the currently wired system and simply transplant the wiring into the Elk Board/keypads. Will this work? Is there anything special I need to look out for?

#2 RAL

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 10:48 PM

Some things to check:

 

How many existing keypads are there and how are they wired?    4-wire cable home runs to the panel?  If so, and there are only 2, You can reuse the existing cable to connect the Elk keypads, IF there are only 2.   If they are daisy chained, that's better, and you could connect more than 2.  Otherwise, you may need a Elk M1DBHR retrofit hub to connect them to the Elk panel.

 

Do your existing door and window contacts have EOL resistors installed?   If so, that will be a problem for the M1.  The resistors will need to be removed and/or replaced.  If they installed the EOL resistors at the panel instead of at each door and window, so much the better.   Just discard them and wire the contacts to the panel.

 

Do you have motion detectors?   Same issue regarding EOL resistors.

 

Do you have smoke detectors wired to the old panel?  If they are 2-wire smokes, you may need to replace them with models that are compatible with the M1.   If they are 4-wire smokes, you can probably reuse them, but will have to change the EOL resistor.   If they are old, you probably should replace them anyway.

 

Are you planning on any zone expanders for the M1?  That is another issue you will have to consider along with the data bus wiring for the keypads, since the expanders also connect to the data bus.

 

If you want to use the M1's audio output capability, you will need some speakers.  It's nice to place them near the keypads as well as elsewhere in the house where you want to be able to hear announcements.    You'll need extra wiring for this.



#3 keepersg

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 09:08 AM

The Elk M1 uses (for 3 state wiring) a 2200 ohm EOL resistor and reads 4 to 8.8 volts on the circuit as normal.  The Ademco manual says it uses 2000 ohm EOL resistor.  I was thinking about what a PITA it would be to change out or remove EOL resistors from sensors throughout the house.  I think I would hook up the M1 with the existing wiring for a couple of sensors and see if the voltage stays in tolerance.  If it doesn't, I would add a 200 ohm resistor at the panel instead of redoing the peripheral wring.  I do prefer the 3 state wiring as it makes troubleshooting much easier.



#4 TrojanHorse

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 11:32 PM

@Keepersg kudos that is a great idea. Never seen that recommended but for a residence it is an ideal solution. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#5 RAL

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 12:11 AM

The Elk M1 uses (for 3 state wiring) a 2200 ohm EOL resistor and reads 4 to 8.8 volts on the circuit as normal.  The Ademco manual says it uses 2000 ohm EOL resistor.  I was thinking about what a PITA it would be to change out or remove EOL resistors from sensors throughout the house.  I think I would hook up the M1 with the existing wiring for a couple of sensors and see if the voltage stays in tolerance.  If it doesn't, I would add a 200 ohm resistor at the panel instead of redoing the peripheral wring.  I do prefer the 3 state wiring as it makes troubleshooting much easier.


Adding a 200 ohm resistor to the zone loop may get things to work initially under normal conditions.  But it results in a loss of operating margins of what the zone can tolerate without creating a false indication of either an alarm or a trouble condition.   It's better to remove the old EOLs completely or install new ones to keep you from pulling your hair out later when things don't work right.

 

The 4120 manual seems to say that a 2000 ohm EOL is supported only on zone 1 for use with a smoke detector.  So it may not be much of a problem for the OP.



#6 keepersg

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 08:09 AM


Adding a 200 ohm resistor to the zone loop may get things to work initially under normal conditions.  But it results in a loss of operating margins of what the zone can tolerate without creating a false indication of either an alarm or a trouble condition.   It's better to remove the old EOLs completely or install new ones to keep you from pulling your hair out later when things don't work right.

 

The 4120 manual seems to say that a 2000 ohm EOL is supported only on zone 1 for use with a smoke detector.  So it may not be much of a problem for the OP.

 

If the zone already has an EOL 2000 ohm resistor installed, adding a 200 ohm resistor in the circuit brings the total EOL resistance to 2200 ohms.  That is what the Elk documentation states is required for 3 state wiring.  I suppose that with two resistors installed you have two potential points of failure instead of one, but resistors really don't fail unless they're subjected to voltage beyond their specs.  I don't see how doing this would result in a loss of operating margin since the circuit would be exactly in spec.  I would directly measure the resistance on the circuit to make sure....



#7 Christopherjenk

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 03:38 PM

Thank you for posting! I'm amazed at how helpful you guys are!

 

I'm not entirely sure there are EOL resistors. I don't see them at the panel and all of the sensors are recessed into door/window frames and glass break sensors. I will grab something to measure the resistance and see what I'll need to do in that regard.

 

I have 2 keypads that are separate runs. My concern is the data bus termination. On page 12 (and also page 6) of the installation manual,my setup will essentially be like the first diagram (without the expanders for now). I'm not sure how/where the terminating jumper should be installed (though it may be obvious once I receive the hardware). Is this something that is pretty easy to figure out?

 

My smoke detectors are not currently wired to the security panel, but I hope to do this in the future.

 

i do plan on getting zone expanders in the future (when I start to add automation). What is the issue with that?



#8 RAL

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:49 PM

Thank you for posting! I'm amazed at how helpful you guys are!

 

I'm not entirely sure there are EOL resistors. I don't see them at the panel and all of the sensors are recessed into door/window frames and glass break sensors. I will grab something to measure the resistance and see what I'll need to do in that regard.

 

I have 2 keypads that are separate runs. My concern is the data bus termination. On page 12 (and also page 6) of the installation manual,my setup will essentially be like the first diagram (without the expanders for now). I'm not sure how/where the terminating jumper should be installed (though it may be obvious once I receive the hardware). Is this something that is pretty easy to figure out?

 

My smoke detectors are not currently wired to the security panel, but I hope to do this in the future.

 

i do plan on getting zone expanders in the future (when I start to add automation). What is the issue with that?


The M1 data bus must have 2 terminators installed, one at each end of the data bus.   The bus can be viewed as one long daisy chain, where a device or the M1 can be located at any position. 

 

With 2 keypads, each wired as a home run, you end up with 2 branches of the bus (one for each keypad) and the M1 in the middle.   In that case, you terminate each keypad.

 

T-- Keypad ------- M1 ------ Keypad --T

 

If you later add an expander, you could wire that between the M1 and one of the keypads.  That's easy to do when the expander is located with the M1. 

 

T-- Keypad ------- M1 ------ Expander ------ Keypad --T

 

That would require no change to the terminators.    But if you wanted to locate the expander somewhere else, away from the M1, then it could get a bit more complicated.  One way would be to daisy chain it off of one of the keypads and move the terminator to the expander (as in the diagram on page 12).  Or you could use a M1DBHR.   There are also other possibilities, such as running two cables (or a Catx cable) to the expander so make the data bus go out and back.

 

Elk has some helpful training videos on Youtube.   It's worth taking several hours to view some of them, especially the basic training and RP2 videos.

 

https://www.youtube....=basic training

 

(There are several version of the basic training video.  All pretty much the same.  Just recorded in different years).

 

There are many others beyond the basic training video.


Edited by RAL, 19 May 2020 - 10:04 PM.


#9 TrojanHorse

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 09:32 PM

Lots of good thoughts here. A key question is how many conductors are at the keypad locations that you want to reuse? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




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