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Facial Recognition


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Poll: Facial Recognition

Do you think the use of facial recognition technology is appropriate or inappropriate?

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Would you support or oppose the use of facial recognition technology use by your local police and municipal agencies?

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#1 pete_c

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 09:14 AM

Noticed most if not all new cameras are starting to include facial recognition. 

 

Here have two Hikvision camera boards which include facial recognition options. 

 

Thinking that soon most doorbell cams will be including facial recognition.



#2 LarrylLix

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 11:24 AM

Facial recognition is scary!

 

Some testers report initial trials can detect sexual preference, criminal attitude thinking, and various other aspects with alarming accuracy in testing done by those involved.

 

Here come the "invasion of privacy" protests once the masses discover some of these capabilities.



#3 sic0048

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 01:21 PM

This is a tough question, and one the courts will be struggling with for a while.  (All my comments are based on the fact that I'm in the US.  Laws are different from country to country). 

 

On the one hand you don't exactly have any sense of privacy when it comes to your face anywhere but your own private property.  Therefore it is not illegal to use cameras in public locations and recordings wouldn't be illegal either.  

 

On the other hand, police generally need a probable cause to conduct searches. 

 

So is running a legally obtained digital face through a criminal database legal or illegal?  

 

Personally I think that unless people are notified that facial recognition software is being used, then it is illegal.  However, if there are clearly visible and readable signs/notices that facial rec is being used (like at the Super Bowl, or other high profile events and secure locations) then it is OK.



#4 upstatemike

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 02:40 PM

This is a tough question, and one the courts will be struggling with for a while.  (All my comments are based on the fact that I'm in the US.  Laws are different from country to country). 

 

On the one hand you don't exactly have any sense of privacy when it comes to your face anywhere but your own private property.  Therefore it is not illegal to use cameras in public locations and recordings wouldn't be illegal either.  

 

On the other hand, police generally need a probable cause to conduct searches. 

 

So is running a legally obtained digital face through a criminal database legal or illegal?  

 

Personally I think that unless people are notified that facial recognition software is being used, then it is illegal.  However, if there are clearly visible and readable signs/notices that facial rec is being used (like at the Super Bowl, or other high profile events and secure locations) then it is OK.

Police don't need a warrant to run the plate on your car if you drive past them because it is plainly visible. How is a face different except you have the legal option to cover your face if you want but not the right to obscure your license plate.



#5 upstatemike

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 02:46 PM

Here's a film (currently on Netflix) that explores some of these privacy issues:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anon_(film)



#6 RAL

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 08:29 PM

Police don't need a warrant to run the plate on your car if you drive past them because it is plainly visible. How is a face different except you have the legal option to cover your face if you want but not the right to obscure your license plate.


One difference is that when the police get your plate number, there is a high probability of them reading it correctly.  With facial recognition, there is a high margin of error.  While facial recognition is pretty reliable under perfect conditions (e.g comparing a passport photo to a file picture), the accuracy drops off dramatically under less than perfect conditions, such as with images from surveillance cameras. 



#7 xlurkr

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 10:24 PM

Another difference is that you can choose to own and register a car, or not.  If you choose to do so, you are subject to a whole bunch of additional laws that govern ownership and usage.

 

You can't choose not to look like how you look.  At any given time, that is.

 

-Tom



#8 pvrfan

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 06:52 AM

Facial recognition is scary!

 

Some testers report initial trials can detect sexual preference, criminal attitude thinking, and various other aspects with alarming accuracy in testing done by those involved.

 

Here come the "invasion of privacy" protests once the masses discover some of these capabilities.

 

 

Source?



#9 upstatemike

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 07:34 AM

Another difference is that you can choose to own and register a car, or not.  If you choose to do so, you are subject to a whole bunch of additional laws that govern ownership and usage.

 

You can't choose not to look like how you look.  At any given time, that is.

 

-Tom

 

Unless you live in Los Angeles or some other place where not owning a vehicle is so impractical you really don't have a choice.

 

You can choose not to look how you look by wearing a mask... fortunately that is the current fashion anyway.



#10 upstatemike

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 07:40 AM


One difference is that when the police get your plate number, there is a high probability of them reading it correctly.  With facial recognition, there is a high margin of error.  While facial recognition is pretty reliable under perfect conditions (e.g comparing a passport photo to a file picture), the accuracy drops off dramatically under less than perfect conditions, such as with images from surveillance cameras. 

But if it is not accurate then the person who gets violated is the one who was incorrectly identified from my facial photo, not me from having my face analyzed without my permission. (Not supporting the police state, just exploring the obstacles in trying to challenge it.)



#11 RAL

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 12:17 PM

But if it is not accurate then the person who gets violated is the one who was incorrectly identified from my facial photo, not me from having my face analyzed without my permission. (Not supporting the police state, just exploring the obstacles in trying to challenge it.)

I'm not sure I follow who is the bad guy and who is the innocent victim in your example, since you used my/me for both.


But how about the case where a surveillance camera that observes you walking down the street incorrectly identifies you as a criminal or terrorist, and the next thing you know you are being dragged off by the police?



#12 upstatemike

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 03:38 PM

I'm not sure I follow who is the bad guy and who is the innocent victim in your example, since you used my/me for both.


But how about the case where a surveillance camera that observes you walking down the street incorrectly identifies you as a criminal or terrorist, and the next thing you know you are being dragged off by the police?

My point was if I am incorrectly identified nobody is going to come to my house and arrest me, they will go arrest the person who's info incorrectly popped up on their screen from scanning my face. In your example there is a real time false positive as I go through a security checkpoint or something but this would point to the file of some terrorist, including a picture, which will not match my face so it will be immediately obvious that it was a false positive. I suppose there is some risk from doppleganger "look alikes" where they can't tell the difference between you and the bad guy even when they have you in custody but I'm having a hard time accepting this as a real risk. 



#13 LarrylLix

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 06:47 PM

I'm not sure I follow who is the bad guy and who is the innocent victim in your example, since you used my/me for both.


But how about the case where a surveillance camera that observes you walking down the street incorrectly identifies you as a criminal or terrorist, and the next thing you know you are being dragged off by the police?


Then you would be interrogated and let go once your wrong identity has been confirmed.

I know a person that was arrested for car theft, having the same name as the real thief. He went and registered a middle name the next week.

At least it speeds up and narrows down the legal process. Mistakes will always be made.

 

Facelifts may become cheaper on quantity purchases. :) :) :rofl:



#14 ano

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 10:26 PM

I'm not sure how state-of-the-art Apple's and Google's Facial Recognition is in their photo organization programs, but its more funny than anything else.  You basically start naming the people in your pictures, and the programs attempt to identify the remaining people. I say "people" lightly because both Google's and Apple's program often identify dogs in the picture as people. The programs identify some, but they are more wrong than correct.



#15 RAL

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 11:11 PM

My point was if I am incorrectly identified nobody is going to come to my house and arrest me, they will go arrest the person who's info incorrectly popped up on their screen from scanning my face. In your example there is a real time false positive as I go through a security checkpoint or something but this would point to the file of some terrorist, including a picture, which will not match my face so it will be immediately obvious that it was a false positive. I suppose there is some risk from doppleganger "look alikes" where they can't tell the difference between you and the bad guy even when they have you in custody but I'm having a hard time accepting this as a real risk. 

 

 

I'm not sure how state-of-the-art Apple's and Google's Facial Recognition is in their photo organization programs, but its more funny than anything else.  You basically start naming the people in your pictures, and the programs attempt to identify the remaining people. I say "people" lightly because both Google's and Apple's program often identify dogs in the picture as people. The programs identify some, but they are more wrong than correct.


It's not always easy to convince the authorities that they made a mistake.  The cops hear that argument all the time from people they arrest, whether it is true or not.  Even when pictures don't match, fingerprints don't match, witnesses tell them they've got the wrong guy, the cops are reluctant to cut anyone loose.

 

Here's a recent example of a facial recognition screw up.  It took 30 hours before they finally let him go.

 

https://www.cnn.com/...tion/index.html






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