120VAC Smokes in New Construction

[Sacedog]

I'm getting ready to start construction on a new home, and will be doing all of the LV wiring myself. I spent some time down at the planning dept, and speaking with the local fire inspector, regarding all of the different aspects of the wiring.

They require that all smokes in new construction be 120VAC powered, with a batter backup. SO I need to figure out what my best option is for smokes (I had planned on using 4-wire ones).

I have seen the info on the GE ESL350CX by searching the site, and if I understand correctly, you can either wire these with LV to one smoke, that will send a signal if any of the smokes are tripped, or you can wire each smoke individually to send a signal if just that one smoke is tripped.

Is it worth it to have the contractor install these smokes instead, and wire each one back to the Elk? Or am I better off letting the contractor install whatever they normally do, and just replacing the smoke nearest to the Elk, with the 350CX, and connect that one smoke back to the Elk?

I realize that in the latter scenario, I would not be able to see which smoke is going off; but frankly, the purpose of the smokes is to get you and your family safely out of the house, and not to walk over to the nearest touchscreen and say "Hmmmm. I wonder where the fire is..."

Any opinions on the this would be appreciated.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I ordered one of these smoke detectors a while ago and have yet to install it. I will try to get around to it these next few weeks.

The way I understand how this works is you only need one of these in line with all your other "traditional" smoke detectors. When any smoke detector goes off this one will trip a set of contact closures, which of course you could wire to an Elk zone (I will run it to a Caddx zone).

I have six or seven smoke detectors already in my home and didn't want the hassle of re-wiring/installing them. This is a nice alternative as I only have to replace one of those existing smoke detectors with this unit, yet be able to monitor all of them with my system.

HERE is some good info from Cocooner bmil on two different (smoke detector) model types.

 

[Sacedog]

Thanks for the info BSR. Yep, I did read that post, and it was helpful. It also seems like I could do it either way with the Elk. I'm just not sure that it is worth the hassle of wiring each and every smoke in the house.

 

[sic0048]

You might wire for several general zones rather than each one individually - upstairs, downstairs, kitchen, basement, etc.

I think I might want kitchen wired seperately so I could handle that zone differently - ie build in a delay where I could disarm the system if the smoke went off before it called the fire department. The other zones I would not want a delay. Something along those lines.

 

[Steve]

There are a few threads around on this. In one, the owner was able to convince the local inspector that a LV smoke with battery backup was satisfactory so he did not have to install the 120V ones. IMHO, if you can pull that off, its the best solution.

 

[Digger]

There are a few threads around on this. In one, the owner was able to convince the local inspector that a LV smoke with battery backup was satisfactory so he did not have to install the 120V ones. IMHO, if you can pull that off, its the best solution.

In some states (NJ and PA as examples) they have adopted the IRC (International Residential Code) that specifies that the smoke alarm shall be powered by the mains supply to the building and have battery backup. Some AHJ's will only allow 120 V alarms base on that.

There is also a requirement in the International Fire Code that states that the smoke alarm must operate if the Central Station and/or Fire Alarm Panel are disconnected. I am not aware of any LV alarms that comply with that and also sound all alarms at the same time and can still work with/without an alarm panel.

Anyone familair with this?

 

[Digger]

You might wire for several general zones rather than each one individually - upstairs, downstairs, kitchen, basement, etc.

I think I might want kitchen wired seperately so I could handle that zone differently - ie build in a delay where I could disarm the system if the smoke went off before it called the fire department. The other zones I would not want a delay. Something along those lines.

If I remember correctly a smoke alarm is not permitted by the NFPA in a kitchen or within 3 feet of the entrance/exit of a kitchen.

I am not saying I am 100% correct on that.

 

[Sacedog]

You might wire for several general zones rather than each one individually - upstairs, downstairs, kitchen, basement, etc.

I think I might want kitchen wired seperately so I could handle that zone differently - ie build in a delay where I could disarm the system if the smoke went off before it called the fire department. The other zones I would not want a delay. Something along those lines.

If I remember correctly a smoke alarm is not permitted by the NFPA in a kitchen or within 3 feet of the entrance/exit of a kitchen.

I am not saying I am 100% correct on that.

I wasn't planning on putting a smoke in my kitchen. Instead, I will put a heat/ROR as well as a Gas sensor. The gas on the stove was left on by mistake, without being lit at our last house. I happened to get up in the middle of the night, and went downstairs. It was unbelievable how much gas had been put out. I got the family outside, and opened all of the doors and windows. I would rather not have to go through that again, so a Gas Sensor is a must in the kitchen.

 

[Ranger Digital]

sace, OH MY! glad it all worked out. the good part is we ALL learn from it.

 

[beelzerob]

Geez sacedog....that's scary stuff. I'm in the planning stages of our house, and we know we're going to have a propane stove...maybe I should plan on one of those sensors.

Otherwise...did you ever come to any conclusion on your smoke alarms? I'm kinda in the same boat....if I can buy an approved smoke alarm and let the electrician install it, then I have one less step to take.

I guess what I'm looking for is a basic smoke alarm that is identical to all the "normal" ones out there....but includes maybe a 2-wire connection that will simply close the circuit when it goes off. Preferrably, I'd like it to only do that when IT senses the smoke (not when tripped by another smoke sensor along the chain), so I'll know exactly which one detected it.

 

[Sacedog]

Geez sacedog....that's scary stuff. I'm in the planning stages of our house, and we know we're going to have a propane stove...maybe I should plan on one of those sensors.

Otherwise...did you ever come to any conclusion on your smoke alarms? I'm kinda in the same boat....if I can buy an approved smoke alarm and let the electrician install it, then I have one less step to take.

I guess what I'm looking for is a basic smoke alarm that is identical to all the "normal" ones out there....but includes maybe a 2-wire connection that will simply close the circuit when it goes off. Preferrably, I'd like it to only do that when IT senses the smoke (not when tripped by another smoke sensor along the chain), so I'll know exactly which one detected it.

It seems like the easiest solution is to replace one of the standard smokes with an ES 350, and wire that one smoke into the Elk Panel. The upside, is that you only have one smoke to wire. The downside, is that you will not be able to tell which smoke is going off...the Elk will just remote that a smkoe alarm has been tripped.

 

[beelzerob]

It seems like the easiest solution is to replace one of the standard smokes with an ES 350, and wire that one smoke into the Elk Panel. The upside, is that you only have one smoke to wire. The downside, is that you will not be able to tell which smoke is going off...the Elk will just remote that a smkoe alarm has been tripped.

Hmmm...no solution exists that allows for specific smoke alarm detection? (obviously without compromising the code requirements that one goes off, they all go off). I really don't mind running firewire wherever it's needed to do that, if such an option exists.

 

[Sacedog]

Hmmm...no solution exists that allows for specific smoke alarm detection? (obviously without compromising the code requirements that one goes off, they all go off). I really don't mind running firewire wherever it's needed to do that, if such an option exists.

There are two different models of GE 350 smokes. One has a relay that closes when any smokes go off; one has a relay that closes when just that particulat smoke is going off. See the link that BSR provided above.

 

[beelzerob]

Hmmm...no solution exists that allows for specific smoke alarm detection? (obviously without compromising the code requirements that one goes off, they all go off). I really don't mind running firewire wherever it's needed to do that, if such an option exists.

There are two different models of GE 350 smokes. One has a relay that closes when any smokes go off; one has a relay that closes when just that particulat smoke is going off. See the link that BSR provided above.

Great info, thanks! The 350CC looks like the one I want. now to TRY and find a place I can actually buy it at.....

 

[Ranger Digital]

wow. great thread as I am fixing to do the same thing.

Beel, why do you want the cc instead of the cx? The cc does not work from the tandem cirucuit, the cx does. Does that mean on the cc that if another smoke detector goes off that the cc would not? if so, why would anyone NOT want all smokes to go off if one goes off?

Just to make sure I understand this correctly, lets say the house is HV wired for four smokes, all daisy chained together. All i need to do is replace one of the smokes with a cx, run lv from that one cx back to my on-q hms panel (HAI). Then, if another smoke from a different manufacturer goes off upstairs, it will trigger all smokes as well as send a signal to my on-q that smokes have gone off? Am I understanding this correctly? I wonder without a cx and any lv, do all the smokes go off anyways if i did nothing? i need to talk to the electrician wiring the smokes too.

Thanks!