2nd Floor Laundry Protection Advice

PhillyTim

Member
I'm putting a laundry room in on the second floor. In the first house I ever owned I put off replacing a bubbling supply hose on my washer (which was in the basement) and came home one night to 3 feet of water in my basement and a small electrical fire (so small I literally blew it out). The concept of that much water released on the 2nd floor makes me shutter.

So, I want reliable, redundant protection.

To that end (and as per code), the washer will be placed in a steel pan with a drain (a floor drain is not an option). We're going to put some sort of stands in the pan for the washer to sit on so it can be removed for service as we plan to install a counter over top, which would otherwise make it nearly impossible to lift the washer out of the pan for service. Strangely a google search turned up no solutions or even discussion of that issue. It makes me wonder if there are a bunch of people having to remove counter tops when their washer breaks... Anyway, the pan and drain would hopefully protect against a mechanical failure in the washing machine, but no way would it handle a supply line failure in which water would probably spray all over the room, so it's clearly not enough protection!

I also plan to buy the best supply hoses I can find, which appear to be the "Floodcheks."

We also plan to manually turn the water off after we run laundry every time--but I'm skeptical that we'll remember to do this. It's an easy thing to do, but an even easier thing to forget to do.

So, the final layer of proctectionI'd like (and the reason for this post) is water detection and a water shutoff valve (local rather than whole-home would be OK by me). I've investigated a number of options. My plumber recommended Floodstop, which is reasonably priced and very simple, but reviews on Amazon and Smarthome suggest it's poorly made--and not something I'd be confident to trust. I also looked at the Watts Intelliflow, but the reviews on Amazon are horrendous. And of course there is Waterstop, Pipeburst (expensive!), and a few others (there is a comparison chart here: http://www.diycontrols.com/t-automatic-water-shut-off-valves.aspx). But once you get into that price range, the Elk WSV (in conjuction with probably 2 GRI 2600 sensors--one in the pan and one on the floor) that so many here seem to have looks like the best option.

That leads me to my questions. First, do I need to worry about the water in the machine, in which case I'd have to shut power off to the washer? A drain failure could cause the machine to dump water on the floor (hopefully into the pan), and shutting off the water supply would do nothing to stop that. I'm not sure how much water the average front loader holds, but presumably it's enough to cause some damage. The pan will tie into a different drain, so I'm thinking it's OK to leave the washer power on even if a leak is detected--any thoughts?

The other big question is whether I can use the Elk WSV without buying an M1, and if so, how? I do hope to buy an M1 at some point, but it's an expense I don't need to add right now. My current panel is an ADT-installed Safewatch Pro 3000 (the Honeywell Vista-20P). I'm fine with not tying the WSV into my panel as long as the water is shut off. Obviously the alerting is nice, but it's something I'd be fine with adding later when I can convince my wife to get the M1.

I'm also concerned about setting up the WSV. I've done some basic HA in the past which was just X10 lighting controls (does that even count?), but I'm way over my head relative to many of you. I'm intrigued by the challenge, but fearful of having the WSV and the 2600's installed but not wired up as I try to figure out how to do it--or worse yet just getting it wrong.

Thanks for any help you can provide!
 
Your alarm installer may be able to add the Elk WSV (or similar) to the Honeywell Vista-20P, use some water sensors, and add control to the washer power. Give them a call.

Not sure how much they'd charge, but you may be able to re-use the valve and sensors if you get a new alarm someday.

Elk M1EZ8 + WSV (or similar) + water sensors may be an option. Cheaper than M1, though I'm not sure how easy it will be (never looked at the EZ8 board). Looks like M1 EZ8 kits (battery, KP, enclosure) start around $400.
 
You can use an Elk WSV without an Elk. Get the GRI water sensors. The water sensors can shut down the water valve and the power to the washer.

The relay in the sensor can be wired to a second double poll double throw relay. The GRI would pass current through to the relay when dry and hold the relay "on". If the sensor gets wet or it otherwise fails, power to the dpdt relay is interupted and it shuts down. The Elk WSV would be wired to one of the polls on the relay and the power to the washer itself would be wired through the other poll. Using the NO and NC sides of the DPDT relay, you wire both the washer and the Elk-WSV such that when the relay is energized, power flows through to the washer and the Elk WSV is held in the open condition. When power to the DPDT relay is interupted (sensor gets wet or otherwise fails), the Elk WSV would have power switched over to the "close" side and the power to the washer gets interupted.

http://www.grisk.com/specialty/pdf/2600%20Series.pdf
 
Thanks Lou! I have to admit that your suggestion exceeds my electronic knowledge (I have a lot to learn!), but I have an electrician working at the house now to whom I can show your advice.

A few questions. I'd like two 2600's (one in the pan and one on the floor in case the leak isn't being caught by the pan); can I connect one to the other, or am I just connecting both the DPDT? What type of wire would I need to run from the DPDT (which would presumably be in the laundry room) to the WSV?

Also, what do I need to do to prepare for purchase of the Elk M1? Do I need two runs of 24/4 from the Laundry room to the wiring cabinet for the two 2600's? I would need to access and presumably remove the Relay at that point--I assume it would be installed in a switch box--which I would then cover with a blank wall cover?

Thanks again!
 
Regular electricians frequently don't have a clue about this stuff. I am not sure what kind of person you could call that would be sure to understand this and also willing to do it considering liability and stuff if it should for some reason fail. Certainly you could ask him and see what he says.

You can run 2 2600's in series with each other and if either got wet it would cut the power/water the same.

EDIT: I would run 2 sets of wires to the wiring closet. . . but 1 set would be enough if you planned on running them in series. In other words, if you wanted the elk to know which one tripped, you need to wire them separately, if you didn't care for the Elk to know in the pan vs outside the pan, then I 4 conductor is enough.
 
The instances of such failure on modern front-loaders is much lower than it used to be. They don't hold much water to begin with; and they have to generally pump the water up and out. That said, these are the basic failure points:
  1. Drain hose fails (falls out, breaks, etc) - machine is pumping water and it ends up on the floor.
  2. Total machine breakdown inside and somehow water leaks out of the machine onto the floor.
  3. Burst water line.
  4. Other plumbing fixture failure
Obviously don't go cheap on the hoses - I use those floodcheck ones; can't tell you if they work or not - and I hope I never know... but I've had 'em in place for 3 years now. And being able to cut the power to the machine is nice; but you need to make sure that however you do this the switching device can handle the current from a washing machine. Use new hoses and replace at any sign of wear, and I'd recommend having the machine serviced every couple years just to make sure all the seals and everything are in good shape. When you buy them new, it's not much extra for a 5-year maintenance plan.

As far as the electrical knowledge, if you can follow some basic instruction and work with us, I'm sure one of us around here would be willing to diagram it out for you. Once you get the hang of basic relays, this stuff is a piece of cake. But as Lou said, the only thing you'll get a "pro" of sorts to install is a commercially available solution for this - nobody is going to DIY something for you unless it's a general handyman and not a tradesman.

Once the pan is installed, be sure to check it out to make sure it was done right. Mine was just completely "faked" and would've never worked correctly in the event of a real flood. I had to replace it anyways because my washer is huge; and when I saw that they actually hook the pan to the drain, I ended up having to use a hole-saw to cut the floor around it enough to loosen it up and pull it up to make a good connection. FYI, this drain won't connect to the household drain - it'll typically go out the side of the house somewhere (otherwise it would need a P Trap and some water in there regularly to prevent sewer gas escape). When I was searching for pans, I did find one that had a removable front - if those are reliable, that might be a solution for your counter top desire.
 
Thanks work2play! Our drain pan will dump into a basement utility sink. My contractor is confident that he and the plumber can solve the pan issue, but we'll see!

I priced out a full M1 system and my wife is not supportive of the purchase...so I guess it's either the idea Lou suggested or trying to integrate the Elk WSV into my Vista 20p. For the latter idea I'd need an installer-anyone have any Philly based recommendations?

Incidentally, if I somehow convince my wife to sign off on the M1 purchase, is it reasonable for an HA newbie expect to program it myself?
 
The only real advantage of integrating into your Vista is for alerting; otherwise it'll be easy to to make it standalone.

As for you being able to do it yourself? Well, we were *all* newbie's once!
 
It really isn't that hard to wire up yourself.

Supplies:

1) DPDT relay with a mounting socket. Check out ebay. . . they are cheap. . . like $10 or less. Needs to be rated for 120v 10 amp (or more amps if your washer requires it) http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-DC-Coil-Power-Relay-DPDT-LY2NJ-HH62P-L-JQX-13F-10A-With-PTF08A-Socket-Base-/110847864707?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf0c2f83#ht_1346wt_1071
2) A 12v transformer with enough amps to power the Elk WSV, the GRI sensor, and the relay. .. not sure but probably 2 amps or less. .. you may have one sitting around.
3) A J-box to mount all this stuff in.
4) An outlet to mount in the j-box for the washer to plug into.
5) A power cord that connects the j-box to the wall plug.
6) The GRI water detectors.
7) Wire
 
How about an off the shelf item, like a Water Cop or Intelliflow, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel and build your own UI and additional hardware.
 
The Intelliflow would be perfect, if it worked, but the reviews on Amazon suggest it doesn't, at all (as I said above, the reviews are horrendous). And my plumber suggested Floodstop, which has better reviews, but does not seem of sufficient quality to trust over the long term--and this application requires exactly that.

The Watercop is an interesting option. They have a wired and wireless solution. I don't want or need wireless--the walls to the laundry room are already open, and I prefer the reliability of a wired solution. Their wired solution is really intended for use on a hot water heater. It comes with their own water sensors, which are nowhere near long enough to run to the basement where I'd need to cut off the water. Otherwise I'd need two wired waterstops in my laundry room--one for hot and one for cold.

I appreciate all the help with how I could use the Elk WSV--thank you all! The one thing I'm not following is how the low voltage sensor cuts off the high voltage power for the Washer (obviously this is all very new to me--sorry for not getting something that probably should be obvious!). Which leads me to a question; I think my floor drain will provide protection for the water that's in the washer should the washer or washer drain fail. So does the approach with the Elk get any easier if I don't worry about powering down the washer and just focus on cutting off the water supply--which would ensure no more water was sent to the washer and protect against a supply line issue? Most of the discussions on this board among those with an M1 seem focused on doing only that anyway.
 
I have found one other option; GRI does make their own Water Shutoff Valve. Does anyone have any experience with that or knowledge about it? I'm wondering if it's of comparable quality to the Elk WSV. I also can't tell if it will remain closed should it lose power while in the closed position? Of course it has no battery backup, so it should probably be run off a UPS anyway.
 
If you don't want to do all the relay stuff yourself, I also found people talking about using a Furman MP-20 to control the power (it is nothing more than a fancy relay controlled outlet capable of handling a 20amp load). It's pricey though.

I would be reluctant to rig low voltage and high voltage wiring in the same box using a relay. The electrical code frowns upon that, and at the very least could lead to some dicey inspections/insurance issues if you sell, or there is a fire.
 
If you don't want to do all the relay stuff yourself, I also found people talking about using a Furman MP-20 to control the power (it is nothing more than a fancy relay controlled outlet capable of handling a 20amp load). It's pricey though.

I would be reluctant to rig low voltage and high voltage wiring in the same box using a relay. The electrical code frowns upon that, and at the very least could lead to some dicey inspections/insurance issues if you sell, or there is a fire.

I wouldn't put the j-box in the wall. It would be a plug-in appliance of sorts with a standard 120vac wire/plug coming off of it and a standard 120vac receptacle on it. Something that would remind you of a surge suppressor. Keep in mind that any device that does this will have low voltage and high voltage mixed together whether you make it or it comes pre-made, it is impossible to have a low voltage water sensor (which they all would be) control a 120v load without the two sharing some amount of space. 12vdc relays that are designed to carry 120vac loads by their very nature mix low/high voltage. But I would put a partition between the relay and the receptacle. They make boxes with partitioning options just for that purpose.
 
I think you are on the right track here.
Here is a picture of what happened to me when my HVAC guys didn't properly connect the condensate pipe to an air handler. The roof caved in in a guest bedroom.

I have now installed water sensors (GRI) near all air handlers, and in the basement utility room. Any water detection immediately shuts off the air handlers in the affected area, and sends me an alert.

In this picture a lot of priceless stuff was destroyed. Hand made martial art uniforms made by monks - things that could not be cleaned, or even dry-cleaned!
Really aggravating. Learn from my fail.

Oh, and downstairs, a toilet actually cracked in half last month. There was an inch of water in the den downstairs when I went to feed the Doberman. Water got into the walls and caused all sorts of damage, and mold. Really, install water sensors.

There has been one other water leak in the den in the past 5 years, I don't remember the reason, but that's a total of 3 water disasters in the last 8 years.

It's a good thing I had the foresight to run 3 10-pair extra cables to all parts of the house...


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