3 phase building lighting control options?

[pkshiu]

Without doing enough researched, I started testing out some Insteon components in my loft only to found that it does not work well because the building has 3 phase wiring. I really liked the price/performance of the Insteon, and their dimmer keypad would have worked great, but it is not going to be a solution for me because of the wiring problem.

Any recommendation to what other options I have? X-10 is just too unreliable althought ironically it will work in a 3 phase building, sorta. RadioRA sounds good but very expensive. Z-Wave's product mix is very limited right now. Any reasonable hardwired solutions?

Thanks,
P.K.

 

[tech-home]

What about UPB, contractors seem to be moving this way.

Zwave may be it when Intermatic starts releasing the Pro line.

 

[upstatemike]

What happens if you put an Insteon RF Linc on each of the three phases?

 

[tanstaaf1]

A doubtless ignorant question, but why would 3 phase wiring constitute a problem for insteon with its signalincs? My factory has 3 phase wiring, but it doesn't prevent any normal voltage equipment from working - you just don't use both phases except on the specially wired equipment.

With enough properly deployed signalincs I'd think insteon would work as well...? Your experience is of more than passing interest to me as the idea of being able to automate parts of my factory has crossed my mind (I'd also like to automate my farm, and that has 3 phase for the water pumps, etc.).

 

[WayneW]

I believe the Insteon issue with 3 phase is that things would not stay "in phase". In a regular split phase residential system, I believe (please verify) that some signal leaks between phases naturally and the SignaLinks have to match up EXACTLY with that true signal. and the SignaLinks are only designed to work on split phase.

 

[rcharris]

All:

There is a very informative white-paper available at insteon.net that goes into some detail about phase-bridging and lots of other things about the Insteon messaging protocol. It does not explicitly state that the RF-Lincs will bridge three phases as easily as two, but I believe it is possible based on my reading in the white-paper.

http://www.insteon.net/pdf/insteondetails.pdf

Enjoy,
Rod

 

[Guy Lavoie]

I would be very suprised if a RFLinc worked with 3 phase power if it is not designed specifically to do it. The fact is: the zero crossing signal occurs at a different time with 3 phase power, while it is the same for single or split phase home wiring.

 

[Steve]

As Brian mentioned, UPB would work on 3 phase. Not inexpensive, but it works. Here is an example of a UPB 3 phase coupler/repeater.

 

[upstatemike]

I would be very suprised if a RFLinc worked with 3 phase power if it is not designed specifically to do it. The fact is: the zero crossing signal occurs at a different time with 3 phase power, while it is the same for single or split phase home wiring.

I guess my thought was that the RF Linc would not know it is on 3-phase and would just sync to the zero point of the 120V leg it was on. I also assumed the RF communication is buffered so it can be brought in sync with the powerline. I am probably wrong on both counts.

 

[SmartLabsMike]

INSTEON was designed for a 2-phase residential environment.

It is NOT recommended that INSTEON-enabled devices be installed into a 3-phase environment. We have heard some users trying this however we make no guarantees nor will we support it. :lol:

 

[pkshiu]

Thanks for all the comments so far. Yes. I got Insteon working on some outlets but not all. So kinda defeat the purpose. Sounds like UPB is the other option. If I have to install an expensive coupler to get it to work it's still worth if it works as advertise.

How come no one here is doing hardwired nor RadioRA? Just too inflexible? I am surprised that RadioRA only have a RS232 interface box as well, since I do intend to write some custom software, and it has been 10 years since I touched any async programming.

There are so many different brands of UPB stuff out there. Any recommendations? Also -- does anyone have any first hand experience of trying to do this in a "commercial" building? (We live in a new loft building but basically commercial type construction).

Now that I am down the research path, I assume signal will travel down the pipe to everyone else in the building? I think UPB devices are uniquely addressed so that shouldn't be problem. But won't it be good april fools act to start scanning for other devices...?

P.K.

 

[Steve]

Hardwired is not practical for an existing building. If you had the flexibility to run all the wiring and the budget, hardwired is the best/most reliable. I personally like Simply Automated equipment the best. You should be ok with UPB on the security front.

 

[elcano]

I'm not an expert in power systems, but here goes the theory:

2-phase system have a 180 degrees phase difference. The voltage on both phases cross the 0 volts line at the same time. All powerline systems are designed to send the data near the 0 volts crossing instant, so any message sent in one phase can cross to the other phase without problems.

3-phase circuits have a 120 degrees phase difference. None of the phases cross the 0 volts line at the same time. While any powerline system would work fine within a phase, they would not be able to pass the signal to the other phase.

I dont know how other powerline technology would do better. I would try an RF system like Z-wave instead.

 

[jlehnert]

How come no one here is doing hardwired nor RadioRA

RadioRA = $$$$, and as someone already mentioned, hardwire is not particularly well suited to retrofit installations.