About to order just want to get opinions on parts I am putting together

[hagak]

Well I think I have research this project a good bit and am close to ordering parts. My plan is to have a system that I can expand with time, however want to start with just a focus on the security side and then expand into HA.

So I want to minimize the amount of wire I have to pull through an older home so doing a good bit of wireless.
I plan to integrate the security panel with Insteon so was going to get this kit:
http://www.smarthome.com/128301D/INSTEON-Compatible-Elk-M1-Gold-Kit-and-ISY-99i-Controller-with-Dual-Band-INSTEON-Interface/p.aspx
Will be getting a second KP2 keypad for the bedroom and also getting the speakers to mount with them in the flush mount kit. Curious if anyone has tried mounting the 2-way speaker/mic in the flush mount kit?

This GE wireless receiver
http://www.smarthome.com/12839/Elk-M1XRF2G-Wireless-Receiver-Input-Expander/p.aspx

Was going to use this window sensor on my double hung windows
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-681-ge-nx-45060-670-95r-wireless-doorwindow-sensor-white.aspx

This door sensor on the wooden front door that has side lights so it has to be mounted to the top part of the door
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-1144-tx-1510-01-1-designline-recessed-doorwindow-sensor.aspx

The rest of the doors in the house are steel so I do not want to drill the doors. I was thinking I would use this plunger on them, will this ion work with the GE receiver I have listed above?
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-1376-plunger-g-ion-security-ge-compatible-wireless-door-sensor.aspx

This is the wireless smoke I plan to use, I only plan to use wireless smoke on the first floor due to issues running wire.
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-902-tx-6010-01-1-ge-wireless-smoke-detector.aspx

The wired smokes I plan to use, wanted one with a local sounder. After reading the Elk manual it seems 4-wire smokes you have more flexibility on the zones you attach them to.
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-65-449cst-esl-smokeheat-detector-with-sounder.aspx

For motion I am a little more confused what to get. I do have pets however they are normally confined to certain rooms when we are out so they really should not be an issue but would want pet immune to help reduce a false alarms if one should be loose for some reason.
For the wireless PIR sensors I was looking at this one (again is this compatible with the GE receiver?):
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-126-60-703-95-ge-iti-caddx-wireless-long-life-pet-immune-pir.aspx

For the wired PIR sensors I was looking at this one. Particularly I liked the size, my wife needs to approve anything that is visible so smaller is better.
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-736-pi6000-sentrol-motion-detector-with-pet-immunity.aspx
It is my understanding the wired motion sensors are better for HA usage since they do not sleep like the wireless ones, is this true?

I will also of course order some 4-conductor fire wire, any issue using the fire wire on the PIR sensors? Since I would probably order a bulk amount of fire wire I would have more than enough left over.
The wire for keypads and wireless receiver can I use Cat6 cable? I have plenty of it.

As for enclosures, the M1 kit includes a 14" can however that seems like it would be tight. I do plan to expand this system and the above is just my starting point. That said I was thinking of using the 14" can to hold the battery and transformer and getting another can for the system. Thinking a 28" would be sufficient, and recommendations on 28" cans?
I plan to run a dedicated power circuit for the security system would I be able to fit outlets within the 14" can? or can I get a transformer/power board that I can hardwire? Something like this http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-404-elk-p412k-4-amp-12-volt-dc-power-supply-battery-charger.aspx

I know this is a big question, I have been lurking awhile and got a few answers already here. Just like to get some opinions and eyes on what I am putting together. Thanks again.

 

[tmbrown97]

Curious if anyone has tried mounting the 2-way speaker/mic in the flush mount kit?

The way the speakers mount is by breaking them out of the faceplate and screwing them into the backplate - you don't mount the whole 1-gang plate in there... I'm sure you could find a way to rig it but you'd have to figure out what to do with the microphone yourself - and being behind the keypad would muffle it. The SP12 speaker works great though - it's what I always do.

The rest of the doors in the house are steel so I do not want to drill the doors. I was thinking I would use this plunger on them, will this ion work with the GE receiver I have listed above?
http://www.homesecur...oor-sensor.aspx

Yup - I use several of them - have all my exterior doors and most of my interior doors covered with them (for automation).

This is the wireless smoke I plan to use, I only plan to use wireless smoke on the first floor due to issues running wire.
http://www.homesecur...e-detector.aspx

The wired smokes I plan to use, wanted one with a local sounder. After reading the Elk manual it seems 4-wire smokes you have more flexibility on the zones you attach them to.
http://www.homesecur...th-sounder.aspx

I'm not the best to speak on smokes - many people have covered that topic - but yes, the 4-wire lets you use basically any zone.

For motion I am a little more confused what to get. I do have pets however they are normally confined to certain rooms when we are out so they really should not be an issue but would want pet immune to help reduce a false alarms if one should be loose for some reason.
For the wireless PIR sensors I was looking at this one (again is this compatible with the GE receiver?):
http://www.homesecur...immune-pir.aspx

For the wired PIR sensors I was looking at this one. Particularly I liked the size, my wife needs to approve anything that is visible so smaller is better.
http://www.homesecur...t-immunity.aspx
It is my understanding the wired motion sensors are better for HA usage since they do not sleep like the wireless ones, is this true?

You've done your homework... without looking at the specific motions you've picked, I will say that wired is WAY better than wireless. Wireless ones IMO are great as a last-ditch for security but wired are way better for automation - and there seems to be so many more options out there for really good wired ones. I personally am a big fan of the Rokonet Dual Technology Pet Immune ones. Also, I like dual-technology (Microwave and PIR - BOTH must be triggered to cause alarm reducing false's).

Motions are a B*tch any way you look at it. There are so many ways a person can gain access to your house without setting off door/window contacts so you need interior protection; but more than 90% of the false alarms are caused by motions... waving curtains, heater on, spider on the lens, etc - so many things can go wrong. For the best false alarm immunity you should add lots of motions - to cover most of the areas - then turn on cross zoning (requires 2 zones to be violated within a set time before triggering alarm - nearly eliminates false alarms but will miss real ones if you don't have adequate coverage).

The basic rule of thumb with GE compatible equipment is to make sure it is GE Crystal compatible - not SAW. SAW will often work with GE, but they don't recommend it because it can often be missed too. There are also specific models listed in the M1XRF2G's instructions - but that'll be impossible to keep up to date. Hopefully Elk will find a way to keep an updated list.

I will also of course order some 4-conductor fire wire, any issue using the fire wire on the PIR sensors? Since I would probably order a bulk amount of fire wire I would have more than enough left over.
The wire for keypads and wireless receiver can I use Cat6 cable? I have plenty of it.

Fire wire won't hurt anything - use it all you want... it's just a minimum for the smoke detectors. Cat6 for keypads and wireless is perfect - that's what I have. Be sure to run an extra 18/2 or similar to the keypads for the SP12 speaker if you go that route.

As for enclosures, the M1 kit includes a 14" can however that seems like it would be tight. I do plan to expand this system and the above is just my starting point. That said I was thinking of using the 14" can to hold the battery and transformer and getting another can for the system. Thinking a 28" would be sufficient, and recommendations on 28" cans?
I plan to run a dedicated power circuit for the security system would I be able to fit outlets within the 14" can? or can I get a transformer/power board that I can hardwire? Something like this http://www.homesecur...ry-charger.aspx

The 14" can can be made to work if you're a professional making a system that you intend to install and lock in a can and hope never gets opened by anyone but you... but in all reality, it's pretty small for a DIY'er/tinkerer. This is a sloppy 28" I had in the last house - it was big enough for what I was doing there - with an M1XIN, Elk 124 Recordable Module, M1XEP, M1DBH, 2 M1XSP's and the normal M1 and battery... in my current house I just went with a 50" on top of a 20" - I'll never run out of space.

I recently compared prices for someone else and the Elk 28" can with the hinged cover seemed to be the best value, and with it you don't have to drill for the M1. That's what I had in the last place and I liked the finish. It didn't have the trim around the drywall that some others have but I installed it then caulked the gap then painted the closet - and it came out looking great in the end.

I actually took the 14" that came with the system and put it in my garage as an extension of the data bus. I threw an input and output expander out there to control my sprinklers and garage door openers (and a couple other accessories); and have inputs for the garage doors, gate, etc. It worked out pretty well.

I just noticed I don't see a DBH in your list - it makes wiring a lot easier - but totally not required.

Final comments... Smarthome is the maker of insteon - but as a company, personally I don't really care for them (I don't like how they've handled some situations with pros and with consumers on their native products). I really like homecontrols.com and automatedoutlet.com. Automatedoutlet.com is a CT sponsor and approved vendor - and as a CT member they'll offer you discounts as well. I would suggest not just buying off web-links but calling someone there and making a deal on a package set. They can take care of everything but the insteon components and probably save you some money.

I'm not sure the exact specs on your home, but I'm in a 2-story home on a slab - so wiring it was so far less than ideal... but with some good help it wasn't that horrible... Wireless door/window contacts are a no brainer - you're not getting contacts to all your exterior walls without a lot of major work... but everything else in my opinion should really be wired. And it may be a pain in the a**, but trust me - if you learn the techniques for doing it with minimal damage it's the best way to go. I'm so glad with this home so far I've made few compromises... I have a keypad by the garage, by the front door, and in the master - with speakers in each... I ran wired motions mostly (wireless glassbreaks); and more Cat5 where I needed it. The damage was minimal and basically equates to a few extra 2-gang blanks in some places - mostly out of sight - that can some day be patched when I'm done.

My point - don't sacrifice - get it the way you want it - even if it's a little more pain in the beginning... you'll probably never revisit it but you may regret it forever.

 

[hagak]

Work2play thanks for the response. It is nice to have someone go over your build. I do understand minimizing the wireless. Other than the contacts I plan to only have 2 wireless motions that are in rooms that are not used much so would not really need the HA. Those rooms just happen to be the hardest to run wire for. Then the other wireless would be 1 smoke on the first floor that is in a hallway that stairs on both sides which means drilling at an angle through 2x12 joists that are stacked making a 4x12. Not only is that a difficult hole to drill but is also a pretty important structural member I prefer to leave intact .

The house is a 2 story on a basement. The basement is finished with the exception of one corner of the basement. Luckily where I want to do the most work on the first floor the basement in that area is unfinished.

I do plan to use cross zoning on the motions, we live in a wooded area which means lots of bugs so I expect most of my false alarms will be due to spiders. 2 things I hate about living in the woods are spiders and squirrels.

I also hope to use those ions on some interior doors as well for HA.

I will look into the sites you suggested for ordering from. I am aware of some of the issues with smart home. However when looking at the HA options the insteon line seems to be a good fit for my home and it seems that they are fixing a lot of the initials issues with insteon. My biggest issue in my house is that none of the wiring is powered at the switch and insteon has a solution for that, and the others do not seem to provide a solution for not having neutral at the switch.

Ok last question what is DBH?

FYI I am not going to be putting the system on a monitor service right away. I want to first get myself and wife used to the system first and work out as many false alarm issues I may have with the install. We do not have a local phone service so once I do hook it to monitor service I will get a gsm unit. Initially the plan is to just have the system email alarms and false an exterior strobe.

 

[hagak]

Ah I see what a DBH is, I was actually thinking of getting one after reading the M1 manual. Yep I will add one of those.

 

[tmbrown97]

Well, like I said before - it sounds like you've done your homework - you should be good to go!

I have to do wireless too in a few areas... just because it's not worth the hassle of wiring for the additional benefit.

And my wife used to be terrified of alarms - so I ran without monitoring for the first year to get her used to it and to see what kind of false alarms I got. It's a good idea if you're a low risk target since often the alarm itself will be enough to deter most smash & grab scumbags.

 

[Del91574]

a 28" Elk can is what I recommend for anyone doing more than a single expander or additional card. I wouldn't stack the boards flat like I've seen others do here, but use the SWG glides in the can and possibly purchase additional, as all the Elk boards do fit within the punched/tapped holes with them, including "universal" boards. Then I'd recommend a battery shelf for the can. I don't necessarily agree on the need of a hub in the majority of M1 installs out there if proper precautions are maintained when wiring the data bus, barring a retrofit situation. I'd rather see the money spent on a 950 surge protector for the panel or a output expander in the cases of a client's install.

Given the choice of RF, I'd be more partial to Honeywell (Ademco RF) over the GE, but as some have stated, since GE is the "OEM" of a few of their panels under their monniker (Caddx, Bosch, ITI, etc.) sometimes it can be had for cheaper than the Honeywell hardware.

One thing, I'd pick a different motion, mainly a Dual-tec wherever possible. You get what you pay for, and honestly, if the unit is adequately sealed up for drafts and insects (good design on many) falses are non-existant.

I, unlike what most have said, do not like the RFM keypads and some of their lack of features. I'm more partial to the traditional Elk keypad and then installing the speaker(s) elsewhere in the area/house on their single-gang plate. I've found that between 4-8, properly wired for impedance is a good balance on volume and inteligelibility in many houses.

The Ion's are hit/miss. They're not horrible, but they need to be installed I/A/W the instructions because that antenna is key. The Micra's magnet might as well be thrown away in 95% of the installs out there.

I think cross-zoning PIR's is somewhat a band-aid fix to an equipment or installation issue, mainly because a properly designed and installed system should not false, and cross-zoning tends to compromise the security of the install unless the detectors are literally looking at each other and the adjustments are made so there's a minimal pulse count etc. People always are concerned for the traffic patterns within a home when a properly installed motion should catch an intrusion from outside to the inside protected area when they are installed properly. Point to ponder.

 

[tmbrown97]

I tend to think DEL's advice is great for someone installing a system for someone and really expecting the can to never get opened except by the installer during maintenance... Homeowner/DIY types typically like the DBH because it simplifies troubleshooting and expansion; also I've yet to see a DIY install featured using the glides - sure they're effective - but the DIY'ers never really go that route. That said, the universal mounting plates Elk sells aren't a great fit either...

For PIR's - it's a matter of opinion. Even the best motions can false once in a while - and that's a false alarm call you don't need. Even in a permanent install - I've seen it where a room was being painted so a few things were moved around and stacked - that's all it took for the cat to get into just the right spot... or cats knock things over... I won't even say I always cross zone - but it's a consideration - if you really don't want false alarms and can cover an area with enough sensors to use it correctly.

And for keypads - what do you lose - 2 function buttons and the built in thermostat? I like the way the flush-mount ones look so much better... I don't care that much about the temperature sensor.

 

[hagak]

Del you mention you like Honeywell over GE for the wireless. Why is that? The reason I am going with GE is due to the door sensor options. The ion plunger is easier to find than the Honeywell 5800RPS and the ion device is a little smaller due to not having screw flanges. I did not see any Honeywell sensor that is as small as this recessed one http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-1144-tx-1510-01-1-designline-recessed-doorwindow-sensor.aspx , it is only 1.7" versus the Honeywell that is 4.75" . Not knowing what I am dealing with in the header of my door I feel like going with a shorter option would be safer.

Not sure about the comment on the micra's magnet, I do not have any micra device listed? The ion device is a plunger so no magnet.

Would you still recommend surge suppression for this circuit (note running a dedicated circuit) even though I have a whole house surge suppressor? I have no issue adding surge suppression, for the cost it is pretty cheap insurance.

Keep in mind some of my buying decisions are based on appearance (sensors that are visible) since the wife has to approve the look, even though she is the one that wants the security system . I am trying to convince her that the larger dual-tec PIR would be better but considering they are 2x as big it is a hard sell. Any recommendations on how to sell it to her? I really do not want false alarms because if we get them then I know she will lose any confidence in the system. I understand the trade-off with cross zoning, however in areas like the basement I plan to use 2 sensors to cover the same area and a good bit of their field will overlap.

Keypads, again need to minimize things on the wall. The KP2 with the speaker mounting behind them makes for a much better looking device than the KP and a speaker.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm with you completely on the appearance thing - that's why I went with the Elk flushmount keypads - I think they look pretty good... very high-end look. For doors/windows, I don't have a single visible sensor (and so far I'm just fine with the iON magnets). That said - when it comes to your motions, Function is more important to form. Get the best sensor you can find and afford! Nothing will hurt the WAF like false alarms.

 

[hagak]

I'm with you completely on the appearance thing - that's why I went with the Elk flushmount keypads - I think they look pretty good... very high-end look. For doors/windows, I don't have a single visible sensor (and so far I'm just fine with the iON magnets). That said - when it comes to your motions, Function is more important to form. Get the best sensor you can find and afford! Nothing will hurt the WAF like false alarms.

Ok so I have been able to convince the wife on using the larger dual tech PIR. Looking at what is available at automatedoutlet for rokonet PIR I am a bit confused because they do not seem to list much info about each one. Which one would be recommended for my use, I want pet immune and need to cover a room that is about 20' square? What does the Grade 3 on a rokonet mean?