Building a fully automated small house.

[ForABrandNewHome]

My father is currently having his retirement house built and wants it fully automated. Also, the only wireless signal allowed are from the keyboard and mouse.

He wants one central computer that controls everything in the house.

So, every light should be centrally controlled. Multiple thermometers and multiple cameras that report to a central computer. 2 additional access points to the main computer (one in the kitchen and one in the living room). And speakers pretty much everywhere and an access control panel in the bathroom to select music to play out of the central computer.

Now, how to wire all this up is pretty much a nightmare.

The best solution I have found so far is to use Insteon for thermometers and light switches and direct wiring straight from the device to the computer for everything else. The house is pretty small, so for most devices this will only be about 10 meters, 15 meters in the worst case scenario.

This means that both computer monitors would use long HDMI cables. He also needs USB cables with built in repeaters to make USB ports available in the kitchen and the living room.

I'm thinking of also using USB cameras that connect directly to the computer via long USB cable.

The bathroom control panel would be a cheap tablet pc (I've seen some $70 Android tablets on newegg that should work just fine).

I still have no idea how to wire the speakers.

Any ideas on how to make this setup cheaper/more reliable/simpler?

Also since he's still building the house he can put any kind of wiring he wants, and it seems kinda odd to me that a powerline based network would be the best solution. Are there any better alternatives that are still relatively cheap?

 

[Del91574]

Cheap and reliable/flexible are usually mutually exclusive items and you're barking up the consumer grade realm, which isn't bad, it's just not the same level of flexibility and horsepower.

 

[JimS]

I would not rely completly on powerline even if that is what you initially go with. I would put in some ethernet cable - cat5e is not that much, especially for a small house. It can be used for phone, network, and with adapters for video, etc.

For remote USB ports you could use routers with dd-wrt and route things through ethernet (depending, I think, on what you plan to put on the USB ports. You can also put arduinos and other such things on the network.

You said compete automation but didn't mention things like window blind control. If you want that you need to put in wiring for power and signals to the top of the frame.

For audio jwilson has a good system using multiple consumer stereo amps but it requires a central place to put them.
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/15917-blogs-jwilson56s-now-playing-blog-nowplaying-showcase/
If you can compromise on quality you can use local computer speakers and distribute low level signals to them (cat5 cable works for this). Old PC speakers with real audio input plugs (not USB) can be picked up cheap. Really depends on your desires and budget.

 

[ForABrandNewHome]

Yes he does intend to put in window blind controls. So they'll definitely have to be wired in as well.

But here's what I'm still confused about. I've been searching for hours on the internet and there seems to be a big gap in terms of types of products available.

I've found Insteon type devices that work over power lines and have features like this:
- All in one purpose built devices (e.g. light dimmer device that includes both the circuitry and wall plate and button.)
- RF reapeter and communication protocol
- Over the power line communication and repeater with own network protocol
- peered networking so no need to have a separate wire between the device and the controller for each device.
- Electrical switch to enable to dimming functionality
- Electronics and firmware to make it all work together pretty reliably.
- Priced at around $70

I've found KNX type devices that work over twisted pair wiring with features like this.
- Peered networking
- Not really all in one purpose built solution. Honestly, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at. (KNX dimmer device)
- Over twisted pair wire communication and network protocol.
- Electronics to make it work
- Costs hundreds of dollars
- Presumably, fit for nuclear power plant reliability.

What I would love to find and would expect to be able to find, but can't seem to find are devices like:

On/Off electrical switch over twisted pair or cat5 networking.
- Peered network with own communication protocol. Just one wire goes through all devices.
- Electrical switch only, can be left hidden in the wall. Some devices could optionally be wired to connect to a wall controller.
- Similar quality as Insteon devices.
- Electronics to make it all work.
- Priced at $10 - $60

On/Off electrical switch directly controlled by twisted pair wire, no networking
- Potentially, no electronics should be needed.
- Priced at $5 - $40

Where can I find devices like that?

And why are Knx devices so much more expensive than Insteon? Is it because they're just that much more reliable? Or is it because communication over twisted pair wires is actually more complex than communication over power line and RF?

 

[jaymartin]

On/Off electrical switch over twisted pair or cat5 networking.
- Peered network with own communication protocol. Just one wire goes through all devices.
- Electrical switch only, can be left hidden in the wall. Some devices could optionally be wired to connect to a wall controller.
- Similar quality as Insteon devices.
- Electronics to make it all work.
- Priced at $10 - $60

On/Off electrical switch directly controlled by twisted pair wire, no networking
- Potentially, no electronics should be needed.
- Priced at $5 - $40

Where can I find devices like that?

I don't believe they exist, at least at that price point. In HA speak we call that a hardwired system. Hardwired systems are expensive and generally require paying an installer to install and configure them.

And why are Knx devices so much more expensive than Insteon? Is it because they're just that much more reliable? Or is it because communication over twisted pair wires is actually more complex than communication over power line and RF?

I don't know for sure, but I suspect there are several reasons:

• It was originally targeted to businesses which can afford higher-prices.
• Demand probably isn't great enough to drive prices down.
• And of course it's a huge pain and expensive to install even when you're doing it during original build time.

I am confused about this statement from your original post:

Also, the only wireless signal allowed are from the keyboard and mouse.

Why? Taking that at face value, it eliminates INSTEON (most of those devices are dual-band so they communicate both over the power line and RF), Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi-based devices, etc. So, your options are going to be severely limited - either expensive hard-wired systems or UPB for lighting control. Audio distribution will have to be through a wired system (vs streamed wirelessly via Sonos, AppleTV/Airport Express, etc.)

 

[KenN]

Jay pretty much summed up my thoughts. I would suggest there's little availability for hardwired devices because there is almost no market for them. If you think about how home automation is implemented, I'd wager that well over 90% of installs are done in homes that are already built, meaning that adding point to point wiring is going to be cost and time prohibitive. Since only a very few homes will be built from the studs up with automation in mind, most will be looking for automation solutions that take advantage of existing wiring infrastructure (powerline carrier) or RF.

Add to that, the problem of wires themselves. A 2- or 3-gang box is crowded enough already without adding more wires for automation comms!!

So that brings up the big question ... why is an RF solution not in the cards? It's such an easy solution, can't think of any reason to reject unless one is pulling the "RF sensitivity" argument of of the hat (read the WHO report on perceived RF sensitivity for the definitive research on that bit of silliness!).

 

[ForABrandNewHome]

My father doesn't want to be bombarded by radio waves.

He knows it's not a rational stance, but I guess that's what he wants.

And you're right that it eliminates a lot of options, possibly including Insteon (although I was originally hoping that the wireless part could be disabled and that it would still function).

Also, the house is in France, not the US. Which means that most "over the power line" options aren't really available.

But I still find it so hard to believe that no affordable wired solution exists. Hell, in principle you could use one of the wireless technologies but pass the exact same signal through a wire.

I guess if there is really no other option that costs less than $150 per switch then I may be able to convince him that wireless is the only way to go. But I think I'll need to search a little longer before being convinced that it's not possible.

Also, while we do have to make a decision about how we're going to wire things in the next 6 months. We can wait 2-5 years before installing the end points for automation. I don't know how fast the industry is moving, but perhaps then, more options will be available.

Also, thanks a lot for the help

 

[jaymartin]

I don't think it's likely that 2-5 years will bring a different answer. In fact, I suspect that many of the expensive hardwired systems will have switched to one of the RF protocols (it's already happening). It's just too expensive, even in new construction, to home-run wires to all switch locations when much cheaper and just as reliable alternatives exist.

Signal over power line technology, IMO, is also on it's way out (it's one reason why INSTEON is fundamentally moving to RF). Too many things make it unreliable (more than sources of RF interference).

You didn't mention that it was Europe - that does change things considerably. INSTEON is just being introduced in Europe right now so it's unclear how well it will do there. And as far as I know it's not possible to turn off the RF functionality in an INSTEON device. I don't think UPB is available in Europe either. So, you're back to X10 or perhaps some other lesser-known powerline standard (maybe PLCBUS?).

I think you have some serious rethinking to do...

 

[KenN]

Not to derail the topic too much, but does your father realize that he is bombarded by radio waves all day, every day? Television, am/fm radio, cell phones, satellites, sun's rays, airport communications, GPS. Hell, if you get into a taxi or public transport you're sitting in RF soup. Home automation signals are far lower power and a fraction of a drop in the bucket.

 

[picta]

You may want to take a look at centralite elegance hardwired system, it's not as inexpensive as insteon, but still reasonable and it is available in Europe.

 

[jaymartin]

@picta - can you give us a feel for how much it would cost for what he's looking for? It appears that you can only purchase through an integrator so getting real pricing information is quite impossible without going to one of them and getting a quote. Also, how user-customizable is it (where the user can do the customizations vs the dealer/installer)?

 

[picta]

I am not sure about the European version, but US system should be about 50-70% more than the insteon price for the same number of loads (this is based on my experience from 4 years ago). But you'll get a lot more reliability and power and no issues that are common to the wireless systems. As others have mentioned already, the hardwired systems are not common in DIY world, however that particular system is very easy to use. You can download free programming software and documentation from their website to get a feel for what it would be like to configure it. I believe the automatedoutlet sells the US parts.

 

[jaymartin]

Hmmm - apparently you have to have a dealer login to see pricing at automated outlet. It's also unclear (since there are very few pictures) what parts are what....

 

[picta]

It does seem that they changed the website for pricing, but I would give them a call if you want to scope the current pricing. You'll have to really be confident that you can deal with this system, as it is not the standard one, however you can get all the info with pictures etc. from the company website. They have an "electrician installation guide" that I gave to my electrician, but I did all the programming myself, and it was a lot easier than programming z-wave switches.

 

[Mr Spock]

Cheap and reliable/flexible are usually mutually exclusive items and you're barking up the consumer grade realm, which isn't bad, it's just not the same level of flexibility and horsepower.

You want cheap, no RF, reliable, and your in Europe. I think you have boxed yourself into no-mans land. Remember insteon also generally requires the ISY-99 (about $300 to $500, not sure really) for anything but a very small install. I'm not even sure if that is available in Europe.

Sorry, I think you have a LOT of research to do...