CCTV Confusion. New System HELP

[twinprice]

So, I am seriously considering installing a CCTV system at home and, with a long ranch style house, need around 10 channels to start. I have looked at so many cameras that my brain is spinning and I can't figure out where to go next. 
 
Here is where I am and my current setup:
1. Elk M1 Gold system set up with internet connection
2. ISY-99i system with irrigation, and around 10 automated switches or outlets, and monitored HVAC
3. EKeypad Pro to monitor ISY and Elk
4. I currently have a semi-new Windows 7 machine with 1T of  storage that isn't being used for anything else.
5. Also, since I have a ranch style house, it is pretty easy to run wires (Cat-5/6 or CCTV cable with power) anywhere in the house.
 
I can't figure out what I should get and here are my decision points.
 
1. POE Ethernet Cameras or CCTV w power cameras
      a. CCTV cameras seem much cheaper
 
2. DVR Card for computer or standalone DVR
      a. The computer CCTV card seems like the right way to go given that I already have a functioning computer but are the cards on ebay (16 channel PCI cards) for ~$100 worth it?

3. If I do go the DVR Card route what Windows software would you use?
 
I can't be the first one to try and figure this out.
 
Would some of you wise HA people out there help us newbies figure this out?
 
MANY MANY THANKS!!!!
 
Winston

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum Winston.
 
WIth POE ethernet cameras you do not need a 16 channel PCI card.  Rather you would only utilize a DVR card if you were using analog cameras.
 
Have a look at the camera data base for some ideas about IP cameras. The high end commercial IP cameras are near or close to $1000 each. 
 
You can get decent cameras today for less.   Some of the cameras have contact closure switches for video analytic alarm events. 
 
Many folks also utilize motion sensors wired to their panels to trigger recording events on their camera DVRs.
 
That said a good server with good hard drive capacity and a software DVR that will work with your IP cameras is all you need. 
 
Many folks utilize Blue Iris on Microsoft Windows today.  There are also many commercial software DVR packages available.

 

[electron]

Here is a list of video surveillance software for Windows/Mac/Linux.
 
You need to figure out what you want to do.  Do you just want to monitor events, or do you want to be able to recognize faces?  What about night-time performance, do you have great lighting, or will you have to invest in cameras which perform well in low lighting (which excludes many cheap cameras)?

 

[Del91574]

Honestly, I'd go to a standalone before going to a PC based DVR card.....unless you have a server grade machine, drives, etc. For general use, it'll work, but there's always going to be issues, and assuming you're not going to do Linux for the install and firewall and secure the bejeezus out of the machine.
 
Budget is going to be the largest item...it'll determine where you're going to spend money for recording (standlone is going to be generally cheaper, with the variable being storage) and camera performance is going to be the price point....and for IP based cameras, it's going to be performance vs. cost. You can do an entire system for the cost of a good quality IP camera.

 

[twinprice]

Ok. All great comments. Here are my followup questions:
First, I am truly just a geek homeowner looking to have some surveillance for my property and house. I really don't need to worry about too much detail and I certainly hope that I won't need to ever identify someone's face, as would more often be the case with a convenience store for example. 
 
1. Pete, in looking at ip vs analogue:
For an ip based system, I know I will need:
      a.  all IP cameras (Found the Foscam FI8905W for around $100 but most are $250+) and I can figure out some interior cameras
      b.  an Ethernet switch capable of POE (found some for ~$200)
      c.  a computer with software or standalone DVR to deal with the video (price for computer is just software ~$50)
 
For an Analogue system I will need
      a.  analogue cameras are significantly cheaper with some of the VideoSecu cameras selling for < $50.
      b.  A 12VDC power supply box for the cameras (~$50)
      c.  A DVR card for the computer. (I have found a few 16ch cards that work with Windows XP ( I can downgrade) for around $60
 
So, just from a cost standpoint, if I need 10 channels, with IP, i am looking to spend ~$1300 at the very minimum but with Analogue, I am looking at more like $700. 
Is this right, or am I missing something big?
 
2. Dan, I was looking at a number of the analogue cameras out there and their low-light images, and they don't look too bad. Most of my entrances have lights, but if they don't then the lowlight functions of the cheep cameras look ok. Again, this is less about identifying the person and more about just seeing the person. Granted, For my main doors, I guess it would be good to have recognition of the person.
 
3. DELInstallations, From a computer standpoint, while I am not using a server class machine, it is relatively robust, and if I throw a few SATA 1T drives in there, it should be more than adequate for my purposes. I could use BlueIris and even see it from my iphone/ipad. 
You also mention ip = performance...is that talking about clarity? 
 
Thanks again for your comments!

 

[sic0048]

Well I would suggest that you really determine why you want the system.  Being able to positively identify people and cars/license plates can be very helpful if there was a break-in or vandalism, etc.  However, the equipment needed to capture that kind of detail can be expensive.  But having a bunch of cheap cameras will really be of no benefit.  In fact, hanging fake cameras might be better because it will provide the same deterrent for people coming onto your property, but it won't give you the false sense of security or cost a lot of money.  The fact is that cheap cameras are about as effective as the fake cameras - which is to say they aren't worth the money you spend on them.
 
IMHO, indoor cameras are pretty much a waste in most residential settings except for the specific purpose ones like watching your kid's playroom or nursery, etc.  Or perhaps you put one in the choke points of your house (like stairs or hallways) were people have to pass by to get to other areas of the house.  But having cameras a bunch of rooms inside of the house isn't anymore helpful than 1 or 2 carefully placed cameras and it tends to creep people out (with good reason).  
 
Basically I think you are better off getting fewer but better quality cameras.  Use them in the most effective locations and don't worry about the rest (or put fake camera's in the other locations).  Getting one or two images were you can identify someone is going to be better than having a bunch of images for all different camera angles were not one can help you identify the person.  
 
Keep in mind that identifying a person means that it needs to hold up in the court of law.  Using cheap cameras, you might be able to tell that a certain person is your neighbor because you know them and their habits/movements.  But that doesn't mean that the police or a jury will be able to look at that same image and make an identification with 100% certainty.  Without that, the camera system is worthless IMHO because it will not help law enforcement prosecute individuals.

 

[pete_c]

Personally here have been using analog cameras for about 10 years. 
 
These are connected to a ZoneMinder Linux box with an 8 port 8 BT828 video chips. 
 
ZoneMinder is free and the DVR card was around $50.  I have now added 9 IP cameras to my configuration.  3 are now HD and 6 are SD.
If you want to stick with analog cameras you can purchase two of these 8 port cards.  You can also purchase an analog CCTV DVR at a reasonable cost. 
 
It really depends on how much DIY you want to do relating to software and hardware and what you want to do with it.  
 
The power supply for the cameras is the standard multiple camera fused in the can power supply. ($50)
 
Recently been checking out the newer lower cost HD IP cameras.  I currently have Ubiquiti Aircams and Grandstream (see camera list).
 
Concurrently also recently checking out Blue Iris Windows DVR software.
 
I am currently utilizing Tycon POE switches and a Tycon midspan POE 24 port injectors for the IP cameras (not the Aircams though)
 
The picture quality between SD and HD is very noticible.  Attached are pics. (SD on top and HD on the bottom)
 
Top is 3.6mm lens and bottom is using a 2.5mm lens.

 

[twinprice]

Pete, Your comparison of HD vs analogue is pretty significant, and perhaps, you have made me a believer. 
 
How can I see your camera list? Also, what is the camera on the bottom of the two pictures as that would probably be all I need. Can you zoom into the frame with still a good amount of detail?
 
Thanks,Winston

 

[pete_c]

There is a beginning of a camera list / DB here with a few IP and analog cameras:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/page/cctv-cameras
 
Above the top picture is an Optex combo outdoor analog camera and the bottom picture is an Ubiquiti Aircam.
 
The HD is only 720.  You can get good detail on it.  Note though that the stock lens is 4.0mm and I switched it for a 2.5mm.
 
Here is another snapshot from a different IP camera (Grandstream). Day and night view.  Personally I was impressed with the night view. 
 
 

 

[twinprice]

Pete, am I correct that the Ubiquiti Aircam doesn't work with night shots? 

 

[pete_c]

It'll work with the ambient night lights.  Will post a night Aircam picture here later. 
 
The Aircam lens has a IR-Cut filter glued on to it and if you remove it the picture color is off. 
 
I replaced the Aircam 4.0 mm lens with a 2.5mm lens with an IR cut filter.  You do see a bit of distortion around the periferal edges of the view; you have to look though.  That is more related though to the cut of the lens than the CMOS chip.
 
The Grandstream IP camera is the second one I have purchased.  The first one was "generic" with a Grandstream OS.  It had a "laser" labeled type LED.   They get very warm and do not work as well as the LEDs on the newer Grandstream.  The night shot above and trees are about 75 -100 feet away from the camera.

 

[znelbok]

Couple of comments from reading this as I am looking into this as well.
 
The cards you found on ebay - check out how many FPS they can do for all cameras connected.  You will find a cheaper card cant do very much.
e.g. 4 channels at a total of 30fps (i.e. one channel at 30fps or four channels at 7.5 fps) compared to a 4 channel card that can do 120fps (30fps per camera).
 
There is a new technology out now called SDI.  THis is meant to be an upgrade path for older analog cameras where you can get 1080p signal over coax.  It requries a SDI PCI card or DVR to work with though, but PQ is similar to that of the megapixel IP cameras.  I can get a dome SDI camera for <$300 AU so you guys should be able to find one a lot cheaper in the US.
 
Also consider how you will use it.  Do you want iPhone/Android support for viewing when away from the house?  If so make sure you can use an app with it
 
Does the software need to tie in with a HA software system or hardware (triggers on motion etc).
 
Mick

 

[electron]

I posted a night shot in the airCam entry.  Most IP HD cameras don't do well at night because it would require a much expensive sensor.  If you want high performance night mode, then you need Mobotix class cameras.
 
DELInstallations: I agree that a standalone NVR would be preferred, but I have been doing research for a few weeks now, and the cost is still extremely high if you want more than 4 channels.
 
I would love to come up with a stand alone system running on a white box i7 processor, with a preconfigured OS and software solution, under a CocoonTech brand or something.

 

[drvnbysound]

For my personal use, I researched and debated with myself for a LONG time. What I found/decided is this: If I were to install an analog system I would do it via DVR rather than PC with card. If I were to do an IP based system, I would build my own NVR.
 
Having said that, I had a hard time justifying the cost of good quality, outdoor rated, IP cameras vs. analog offerings... but this really comes down to why I installed my system and what I use it for. I live in a very low-crime area, and I happen to have 4 officers who live on my street and another 2 on the street behind me. Not that this actually prevents anything from happening, but when there are so many police vehicles in the area I feel pretty confident that there won't be too many break-ins. I wanted the system for general observation of my property when I'm not home... Did a kid toss crap in my yard? If so, can I recognize him/her enough to talk to the parents about it? Was there any sort of accident in front of my home? If so, could video be useful? Is anyone (e.g. Comcast servicemen) parking in my driveway when I'm not there? Did the UPS man leave a package at my door? Whatever... For this, I knew that I didn't need a 1920x1080 2.1MP camera, and that good quality analog cameras would suffice.
 
Sure, I'd love to have a few Axis or Pelco IP-based, PTZ cameras... but I didn't want to spend $800+ on a camera. I wanted to spend that much (or a bit more) for an entire system.

 

[pete_c]

Personally I am looking at your CCTV "venture" purely from a DIY point of view.   After all this is an automation DIY forum.
 
Here its not really a life saftey thing versus a commercial endeavor where you really need to have a good CCTV set up. 
 
I live in areas which we do not have many problems.
 
It is a small subdivision of 100 homes with one entrance, many areas surrounded by the golf course water ways; etc. 
 
There are rules here though where we cannot have fences or delineate properties or even put structures outside (sheds etc).  The 100 lots are 1/2-1 acre each.  I was on the other side and involved with the HOA rules et al.
 
Having said that the whole camera thing has been a hobby for me personally having literally wired up my home and property for just about anything.
 
I actually installed and learned a bit of more of Linux using ZM.   As the initial system was purely analog I learned that it was best to purchase a DVR card with separate video processing chips rather than one split some 16 ways (cheap versus good DVR cards).  Most of what I see for less than $100 is pure junk no matter what the description is of the card. 
 
Initially only had the Optex combo cameras connected then I started to play with a variety of outdoor cameras; really experimenting some exposing them to the weather; both low end and higher end cameras.
 
ZM control of events came initially using xAP with the ability to do just about anything.  Concurrent most recently playing with ZM to and from X10 for similiar controls.
 
A few years back started to play with the lower cost IP camera offerings; Panasonic initially.  Still though the resolution was low.  While it was nice to have an IP SD camera connected to ZM; it still was low resolution.
 
Fast forward to now.  Competition and technology has provided now HD resolution IP cameras at a fraction of the cost of the $1000 for security IP cameras like Mobitix, Axis, et al.  (which I always utilized for commercial enterprise type stuff).
 
The hardware and software in these cameras is very reasonably priced.
 
Personally I did look at the commercial offerings of wintel based DVR applications a while back.  I never really liked what I saw and only purchased it because of the resources that would manage said stuff only knowing Wintel OS's or purchased stand alone embedded OS DVRs.
 
I have found out though that my newest Grandstream HD IP doesn't play well with the ZM box.  The camera though has a SIP interface and the OS and RTSP streaming is a bit different than say the Ubiquito Aircam which has a much simpler OS. (I have not had any issues streaming HD/SD with the Aircam to the ZM box).
 
I have heard and read that many folks are happy with Blue Iris; so I am giving it a try now.