complete newb question, sorry.

[weazel]

Hi this may be a stupid question but I think there is just so much information I am getting mixed up with everything.  I have been reading here and on other sites and there are just so many different products its a bit overwhelming.  
 
We are planning on building a new house and I would like to run some automation and do not want to be tied into a commercial system that need a dealer to do everything.  It looks wonderful but I just don't want to be tied into them every time I want to change something. Is there anything DIY that will control everything that the commercial brands do?  Also, is everything Power line based or are there other options, as I don't know if I want to use power lines.
 
I want to be able to run everything from two wall mounted consoles and also smartphones or ipads (using one application). Looking at controlling the following
-security system with door/window sensors, motion sensors and a couple cameras
-irrigation
-thermostat with a sensor on each floor.
-lighting (to an extent, doesnt have to be a ton of lighting control)
-definitely want audio in at least 8 rooms.  Can anything control the stereo receivers (example Onkyo TX-NR808 with network port)
-I am lost on controlling TV / video and dont know what the options are there so I dont know if I would want that.  
I guess it would be cool if we could see the front door camera on the TV when someone arrives but its not something I need.  Can they control cable and satellite receivers? We have 5 TV's, 5 Bell receivers (Dishnet is same), xbox, ps3, 3x bluerays and an HTPC
 
Now is it possible to control all this with one application and is it all wired or can it be mixed wired/wireless?
I wired everything in my current house and am prepared to do the same for our new home.  So I am basically seeing if this can all be done and what I would need for hardware, software and wiring for each room.
 
If I was to general in my description please let me know as I can be more specific. I thank you in advance for reading and replying, and if I am off my rocker don't be scared to say so

 

[picta]

It sounds from your description that you are looking for a centralized remote control more so than automation. Then iRule http://www.iruleathome.com can possibly be a good solution. You can also add HAI controller for security and automation and have access to it from irule interface. For irrigation take a look at http://www.wgldesigns.com

 

[Madcodger]

I doubt one supplier / system can do everything, but it can largely be tied together. Check out Elk or HAI for security, some HVAC. I like Universal Devices and their ISY product for automation. Will let others describe AV as it's not my main concern or interest,

 

[jlehnert]

Anything the commercial/professionally installed systems can do, you can do yourself.  It's just a matter of how much time, effort, and $$ you're willing to commit.  Make no mistake, HAI and ELK are commercial systems.  They make almost all their money from commercial installations.  They've just figured out that there's additional money to be made working with the DIY crowd.  Most people considering DIY are not the type of people who are going to cough up big $$$ for someone else to install the system, so they're not cannabalizing their dealer sales.
 
There are several radio based systems, so you're not forced to use powerline based systems.  Z-Wave handles multiple types of automation tasks and is supported by a large number of vendors.  Zigbee also has multiple uses, but is a little less mature.  Lutron has some radio based systems, but they are proprietary.  I expect there's going to be a lot of IP based stuff coming out in the next few years, but you probably don't want to hold off building your house to wait. ^_^
 
Don't rule out powerline based systems based on any past experience with X10, as it's an apples and oranges comparison.  You wouldn't want to not buy a car just because it runs on gas and you had a bad experience with your gas powered go-cart.  UPB is very solid and is used much more in the professional installs than radio based systems.
 
From your list, an HAI OPII system would do 90% of what you want without problems.  The two areas that would take some work would be controlling the Onkyo, and the TV/Video controls.  I haven't played with an Elk recently, but I believe it has similar capabilities.

 

[weazel]

Thank you for the replies.   I am looking at the iRuleathome site and it doesnt look like there is any automation or a way to control security, but it does look like a simple solution for a controller.
 
So if going the route of the HAI OPII what wiring would I need to run? Is there additional equipment that I could add that would control the AV equipment?  If I am asking dumb questions, is there somewhere I can find this information as every time I start looking for information I get a little confused between all the stuff.

 

[jlehnert]

For any security system, you're going to have to decide if you want wired or wireless sensors. If you're building new, I'd go with wired, as it's cheap, more reliable, no batteries, etc. Basically a wire to every place you want a sensor, i.e. doors, windows, motion detectors, etc. Around 10 years ago I put together a "Wiring your new house 101" guide. It's down in the "How to" section of the archives.  It might be a little dated now, but most of the concepts are still good.  Likewise there are some guides hanging around somewhere on the site on how to install the system.
 
HAI has it's own 8-zone audio distribution system, or they can interface with some of the more popular systems (i.e. russound) right out of the box.  Lighting wise, they pretty much do them all (Caviat:  I just found out to my great chagrin that they currently DON'T do Z-wave scenes).  They do have camera integration, but I don't know anything about it.  Likewise, I discontinued cable TV when "The Wire" concluded, so don't know anything about the current state of video/TV distribution.

 

[picta]

Thank you for the replies.   I am looking at the iRuleathome site and it doesnt look like there is any automation or a way to control security, but it does look like a simple solution for a controller.
 
So if going the route of the HAI OPII what wiring would I need to run? Is there additional equipment that I could add that would control the AV equipment?  If I am asking dumb questions, is there somewhere I can find this information as every time I start looking for information I get a little confused between all the stuff.

I think you should decide on if you want to CONTROL your AV equipment or to be able to AUTOMATE that control. HAI OP2 can do most things that you described except for automation of video (it can automate audio if connected to HAI-FI or russound zone controllers). You can still control any AV equipment from HAI by adding HAI HTX module. Some equipment that allows simple ASCII commands from RS232 port can easily be integrated with HAI (but not Onkyo, you can send commands to it, but will not be able to process the status messages). Alternatively, you could add a software controller, like CQC or HaikuHelper, that will integrate HAI and other components in your system.
 
For wiring to HAI or any other controller, run wires to all sensors and to location of any equipment that you plan to control. Door/window sensors use 22/2 and motion, glass break and occupancy sensors use 22/4. For most equipment run cat5, and for networked stuff, like IP cameras, run cat6. More specifics can be found in this excellent guide: http://cocoontech.com/forums/files/file/64-wiring-your-new-house-101/
 
Lighting is the most challenging aspect of HA. There is no universal answer to what product is best. It will all depend on your project, the size of installation, what you pan on using the lighting automation for, and of course, your budget. How big is your house, and how many levels? You've said you only want to automate some lights, are they going to be spread around the house or concentrated in one area? Do you plan on automating ceiling fan control? Do you want to have keypads and use buttons to control scenes and/or non-lighting equipment? And the more reliable you want your lighting to operate, the more expensive will it be.

 

[weazel]

Anything the commercial/professionally installed systems can do, you can do yourself.  It's just a matter of how much time, effort, and $$ you're willing to commit.  Make no mistake, HAI and ELK are commercial systems.  They make almost all their money from commercial installations.  They've just figured out that there's additional money to be made working with the DIY crowd.  Most people considering DIY are not the type of people who are going to cough up big $$$ for someone else to install the system, so they're not cannabalizing their dealer sales.
 
There are several radio based systems, so you're not forced to use powerline based systems.  Z-Wave handles multiple types of automation tasks and is supported by a large number of vendors.  Zigbee also has multiple uses, but is a little less mature.  Lutron has some radio based systems, but they are proprietary.  I expect there's going to be a lot of IP based stuff coming out in the next few years, but you probably don't want to hold off building your house to wait. ^_^
 
Don't rule out powerline based systems based on any past experience with X10, as it's an apples and oranges comparison.  You wouldn't want to not buy a car just because it runs on gas and you had a bad experience with your gas powered go-cart.  UPB is very solid and is used much more in the professional installs than radio based systems.
 
From your list, an HAI OPII system would do 90% of what you want without problems.  The two areas that would take some work would be controlling the Onkyo, and the TV/Video controls.  I haven't played with an Elk recently, but I believe it has similar capabilities.

 
Thanks again for the replies everyone, I appreciate it.
 
well actually we don't plan on building until fall of 2014 so I won't be at any kind of wiring stage until 2015 so I do have time. I am just trying to get as much information as I can so I know what I will need.  I am hoping I can do most everything over cat5/6 and wireless and staying away from using power lines as much as possible.  I am also seen a little bit of info on HDbaseT which looks very good but don't know enough about it to know when it would be widely available.
 
So am I correct in assuming that using a HAI OPII would be able to automate everything but the AV? What kind of wiring does this run on? Adding the HAI HTX will allow me to autmoate the AV I see.
After reading your  replies, I am starting to think that automation and control are two entirely different things and these systems will automate everything to start, turn off and change at given times and scenes but I can't use them just to manually control my AV?
 
I would rather wire everything that I can, wireless is fine but I like the reliability of hard wired devices.  
 
I am going to download the "new house 101" file right now.
 
Money wise, I dont mind spending a few thousand.  I would rather not put tens of thousands into it as my wife would probably put the end to that

 

[picta]

Thanks again for the replies everyone, I appreciate it.
 
well actually we don't plan on building until fall of 2014 so I won't be at any kind of wiring stage until 2015 so I do have time. I am just trying to get as much information as I can so I know what I will need.  I am hoping I can do most everything over cat5/6 and wireless and staying away from using power lines as much as possible.  I am also seen a little bit of info on HDbaseT which looks very good but don't know enough about it to know when it would be widely available.
 
So am I correct in assuming that using a HAI OPII would be able to automate everything but the AV? What kind of wiring does this run on? Adding the HAI HTX will allow me to autmoate the AV I see.
After reading your  replies, I am starting to think that automation and control are two entirely different things and these systems will automate everything to start, turn off and change at given times and scenes but I can't use them just to manually control my AV?
 
I would rather wire everything that I can, wireless is fine but I like the reliability of hard wired devices.  
 
I am going to download the "new house 101" file right now.
 
Money wise, I dont mind spending a few thousand.  I would rather not put tens of thousands into it as my wife would probably put the end to that

 
Controlling devices with some kind of remote/tablet/web browser is different than automating them. Many systems on the market can control things but not automate. iRule is an example of a single interface that can be used to control different things. HAI OP2 allows both control and automation of many devices, but not AV. You can control AV equipment from HAI interface via HTX, but there is no way to make HAI to send commands to AV equipment from its automation code, at least with the current firmware.
 
Cat5 wiring will give you a lot of flexibility in use of technologies, however it is less expensive to run up to 100ft HDMI cable to a TV location than to use cat5 and extenders. For longer distances cat5 may be the only solution. I would run at least 4 category cables and 1 hdmi to each TV, then you'll have a lot of options. For theater it would make sense to install an empty conduit as well.
 
If you are putting constraint on the powerline use, that will leave you with only wireless technology for lighting, since hard-wired will most likely be out of your budget. The existing wireless lighting today that are most commonly installed are various brands of z-wave, centralite zigbee and lutron radioRA2. It is possible that wifi based lighting control will reach the market by the time you finish construction. For any of these technologies, the best preparation during construction would be to install extra deep non-metal switch boxes, and make sure there is a neutral wire in them.

 

[weazel]

Controlling devices with some kind of remote/tablet/web browser is different than automating them. Many systems on the market can control things but not automate. iRule is an example of a single interface that can be used to control different things. HAI OP2 allows both control and automation of many devices, but not AV. You can control AV equipment from HAI interface via HTX, but there is no way to make HAI to send commands to AV equipment from its automation code, at least with the current firmware.

Thanks, that made it quite clear. While I would like the automation of the AV I guess its not the biggest disappointment if I can just control it. So the HAI OmniPro II with the HTX would be what I am looking for then. I have also seen a product called Commandfusion as well (website, not in person), just wondering if this was the same, it uses a proprietary cable though.

Cat5 wiring will give you a lot of flexibility in use of technologies, however it is less expensive to run up to 100ft HDMI cable to a TV location than to use cat5 and extenders. For longer distances cat5 may be the only solution. I would run at least 4 category cables and 1 hdmi to each TV, then you'll have a lot of options. For theater it would make sense to install an empty conduit as well.

I will definitely run HDMI to each video area even considering HDbaseT will be available by the time I am ready to move on this. Cabling cost doesn't really worry me. The empty coduit is a good idea as well. IS the HTX a IP to IR adapter? Would I need to run 1 IR sensor to each AV area or would I need more?

If you are putting constraint on the powerline use, that will leave you with only wireless technology for lighting, since hard-wired will most likely be out of your budget. The existing wireless lighting today that are most commonly installed are various brands of z-wave, centralite zigbee and lutron radioRA2. It is possible that wifi based lighting control will reach the market by the time you finish construction. For any of these technologies, the best preparation during construction would be to install extra deep non-metal switch boxes, and make sure there is a neutral wire in them.

So Z-Wave would not be an option if I was to use the HAI equipment? Does anyone have any recommendations for thermostats/sensors, lighting, security or does the OP II have it's own addons for these strategies?

 

[jlehnert]

Both the HAI and the Elk are excellent security systems, so that's covered.  HAI integrates nicely with thermostats, especially with it's own brand of sensors (no surprise).  HAI does Z-wave with two limitations.  It only receives status updates on local changes from Leviton Vizia RF Z-wave devices.  Status updates are an issue with Z-wave, so you have to exam each brand closely.  Some do it, others don't.  HAI also currently cannot trigger Z-Wave scenes.  Now that HAI is owned by Leviton, I hope they'll fix this SOON.