ELK M1 and recommendations

[esheneman]

My house currently has DSC system installed by ADT (previous owner) and I've since reprogrammed it a bit to my liking and have not used ADT - never have and never will. I did have some struggle with ADT folks when I tried to get installer code but that's another story. I'm at the juncture where I would like to upgrade the system to M1. I spoke with a sales representative that carry Elk and Leviton (HAI) and he seems to recommend HAI over Elk. I'm still leaning towards Elk though. Both will work just as well with UPB which I use for lighting.
 
Given some local security firms seem to have a preference for wireless vs. pulling wires and I know wired is always better. For each window, I'd like to install sensor and they wouldn't bother giving me an estimate how much it would run to pull wire to each window on the main floor. That being said, I guess I'm going to look at wireless sensor for every window. Elk is advertising its wireless being 2-way which in theory is better than other wireless sensors? Or is it just a marketing ploy?
 
All entry / exit points are already hard wired and for motion sensor I plan to run wire but have not decided the locations yet - again the local firms claim that so-called pet-immunity motion sensors do not work and they are avoiding putting sensor in the areas where cat could jump on something and be picked up by the sensor.
 
As for smoke detectors, at least one of them is failing since they all are over 10 years old. Each one is connected to 120v and it appears there are no smoke detectors available that would be connected to 120v along with backup battery and the ability to communicate to security panel wirelessly. Does that mean I'd need to have two smoke detectors in different areas? One connected to 120v (basic smoke detector) and another low voltage that sends signal wirelessly to the security panel?
 
Finally, I'd like to have a touchscreen and I know Elk no longer offers touchscreen besides navigator keypad. HAI touchscreen is based on android and if I understand correctly, it does not offer API. I'd like to be able to integrate with my Axis IP cameras among other things - the ability to feed data to the touchscreen would be nice. I've heard of RTI touchscreen but it's not clear if I need additional items such as controller if I wanted RTI touchscreen or would the touchscreen alone suffice to work with Elk M1?
 
I will probably talk to the sales representative later this week and I am not sure why he's pushing HAI other than the fact he has one in his house. There hasn't been any updates on HAI products since Leviton acquired it. Maybe he has a quite bit of HAI in the inventory that they would like to get rid of.
 
Thanks for any insights.
 
Ethan
 
 

 

[RAL]

Both the Elk and HAI Omni Pro II are good systems.  For what you are describing, either one can do the job.
 
The Elk 2-way wireless is nice, but I wouldn't say the 2-way feature is a significant advantage over other wireless sensors from GE/Interlogix or Honeywell/Ademco.   One disadvantage of the Elk 2-way system right now is that it's relatively new and offers fewer options in terms of sensors that it supports.  But if what Elk has covers your needs, then all's good.
 
For motion sensors that have good pet immunity, go with dual-tech sensors (PIR and microwave), like the Bosch Blue Line ISC-BDL2-WP12. 
 
If your smoke alarms are 10 years old, it's time to replace them.  Note that there is a difference between smoke alarms and smoke detectors.
 
Smoke alarms are devices that are independent of any alarm system and sound their own alarm and are required by most building codes.  They're the devices you  find at Home Depot.
 
Smoke detectors are the devices which are used with a security/fire alarm system.
 
If you want your alarm system to detect smoke/fires, you'll find you won't be able to tie the alarm system in with your stand-alone smoke alarms.  So you'll end up with both - stand-alone smoke alarms and alarm-system smoke detectors. Typically, you'll need a stand-alone smoke alarm on every floor, as well as in/near every sleeping area to meet the building code.  Then you can add as many alarm system smoke detectors as you are comfortable with.
 
There are other folks here who have lots of experience with touch screens and video, and I'm sure they'll chime in to share their wisdom on that.

 

[tmbrown97]

RAL covered a lot I think...  I'll just touch on a couple points:
 
1) They have recessed wireless sensors for the windows - depending on what type of windows you have.  In my case those turned out to be arguably better than wired since all I had to drill was the drain gap - nowhere did I have to drill through the outer edge.  The MicraG's are what I have and they were purpose-built for windows like mine - the regular vinyl windows where the magnet fits perfectly into the window groove.
 
2) I'd always go wired on motion if at all possible - and with cats, placement is very important.  I had 80lb pet immune sensors, and 3 times my 17lb cat set them off.  Mainly if the cats get up high onto a dresser or running up stairs they can trigger... so place in such a way that the sensors aren't looking at high up areas that the cats may hang out on.
 
When I was weighing Elk vs. HAI years back, I settled on Elk because I liked the company and the way they handled their end users - and I liked their KP2 better than anything HAI had.  I think they look pretty good flush mounted into the walls with the speakers integrated behind them, so your voice response is coming from the point where you're interacting with the alarm.  I also strongly believe in a keypad by the front door and garage door and maybe even a KPAS by the back yard door if you can get the wire there - as well as one in the master bedroom so if there is a violation, you hear it loud and clear and can instantly see where the problem is (ie: which direction to aim).
 
RTI makes some nice looking panels and I've personally been wanting to integrate them into my own house; I'm really waiting for the new smaller RK3 to come out along with their new intercom firmware.  The larger touchscreens can handle a little direct RS232 control but that's more like issuing basic commands - it's not two-way.  You have to use a controller to be able to load the Elk driver in and get the full two-way control - but their controllers are pretty reasonable in cost.  I also like that the intercom feature and even camera viewing will be available from the handheld touchscreen remote - so you can yell at the kids across the house without even getting up!

 

[ano]

Don't put down wireless. My wireless sensors have been more reliable than wireless ones. Batteries last 10+ years and you can pop them wherever you want. Wires can get pinched and pulled and even eaten by rodents. I use the wires that are run in the house, but if i add a sensor where there isn't wires, I always go wireless.
 
ALWAYS replace your smoke detectors every 10 years. If they are more than 10 years old, replace them all. And as others say, make sure you have TWO separate fire systems. the one that comes with your house uses 120V detectors with batteries in each. They make noise and are required by code. Then add smoke detectors to your panel. They will actually call the police or fire department. DON'T tie these two systems together in any way. they each perform a different function.

 

[esheneman]

Ral - Appreciate the clarification. I will replace smoke alarms shortly given how old they are and one is already failing. I'll have to decide how many smoke detectors I want to install - could be next to every smoke alarm or strategically place a few of them. As for wireless, it sounds like it depends on what wireless sensors I want to go with and that will determine the type of wireless receiver I would need. I'll look into Bosch motion sensors - still debating whether I need motion sensors.
 
Work2Play - Will look into MicraG sensors. I'm leaning towards ELK myself - was pretty committed to it until I spoke to the sales representative who is trying to sway me from it. I plan to have keypad near garage door and ideally touchscreen in master bedroom but I might end up with a keypad. I'm trying to decide if I should put KPAS near front door (usually exit via garage but once in a while would exit via front door) but I imagine I cannot mix low voltage with 120v in the 3-gang box. By the way, do you know how much 7" touchscreen along with controller cost? I use HS3 to integrate different technologies together and will likely off-load security-related lighting to security system.
 
ano - Good to know - I recall when my parents had a security system 20+ years ago and they've had number of false alarms due to wireless sensors being unreliable so that kind of worries me.
 
Thanks all for the feedback.
 
Ethan

 

[tmbrown97]

• Smoke Alarms are about life safety.  Smoke Detectors are about property protection.  For life safety, seconds count which is why there are so many and they are way more sensitive.  Your property is insured - the point of the smoke detectors is to call for help before a neighbor might notice and get around to it.  Many people stick with 1 per floor and maybe additional ones in key areas.  There are also rate-of-rise detectors for places like attics and garages where extreme temps may be observed in normal conditions, but they notice when the temps go up way too fast.  
• When considering the front door - think beyond your traditional behavior and consider if you are out of town and have nervous caretakers watching the house.  That display can mean a lot in letting them know what's going on.  Plus I think most people underestimate how much they use their front doors even if they always park in the garage.  Ever forget something and run in real quick?   That said, HV/LV can be accomplished in a single faceplate one of two ways... 1) there are boxes that have a divider that can slide in and act as a separator between the LV and HV; 2) there are "add on" LV rings which sort of hang off the side of the HV ring but separated (sometimes clearance can be an issue depending on the size of the LV item).  So, either way is doable.
• A lot changes in 20 years - lots of improvements and experience gained so wireless is much better these days.
• Pricing for RTI - there's street and there's MSRP.  I can PM what I'd estimate street to be but off the top of my head MSRP is about $1600 for a 7" and $650 for the smaller controller.

 

[Neurorad]

If you want to manage the alarm yourself, you should install it yourself. You need to learn about all the intricacies of the system, and there is no better way. Taking it over after the installer is done could be very difficult.

You could hire an alarm company to run wires to a single room, and see how that goes. Watch him do it. You'll need to patch and paint.

Do the system piecemeal, over a few years. It's a lot of time and energy. Most people won't finish.