Elk M1G Performance Questions

[BDHall]

First of all, I have been impressed with my M1G and have found it to be rock solid.

My system presently consists of the following:
One M1G Control (The battery is not connected at this time)
One KP1 Keypad
One ELK-M1DBHR Data Bus Hub Retrofit
Three M1XIN 16 Zone Expanders addressed as Two(17-32), Seven(97-112), and Eight(113-128)
Two M1XOV 16 Voltage Outputs Expanders addressed as Two(16-32) and Seven(97-112)

So far I am only using my M1G for hardwired lighting control. I have Decora style switches wired to the Zones which are set up as Definition 16 (Non Alarm) and Type 2 (Normally Open). I have my Zones set to "Fast loop response" and the Fast loop response time is set to 20 milliseconds which is as low as it will go. My outputs are driving solid state relays that control lights. As far as I know I have my data bus terminations correct. My Baud Rate is set at 115,200.

The only significant issue I have had with my M1G so far involves response time. There is a noticeable delay between when a switch is pressed and when a light comes on. Is there anything I can do to improve the response time? Concerning my addressing, would it be any better if I had the expanders addressed consecutively on the low end? I am not finished with my lighting yet and will need to add additional expanders, will this result in an additional performance hit?

I was hoping to get some feedback on this subject before I get deeper into this project. Am I missing something somewhere?

Thanks!
Brian

 

[Spanky]

Brian,
The fastest response will be the outputs 7 to 16. Other banks of outputs will use the RS-485 data bus to communicate to the output module.

What kind of delays are you seeing? The output relays should be switched in the 250 ms to 500 ms range.

 

[BDHall]

I wanted to say thank you to Spanky for the reply.

As far as using the local I/O, I had considered trying that but there is not enough local I/O for what I am trying to do and I was trying to save my local inputs for the addition of smoke and carbon monoxide alarms and possibly some temperature sensors.

At this point I do not have a real good way to get an accurate time (I don't even have a stopwatch at home) unless I were to set up a test using a programmable controller I have to time the elk. I would guess at this point that I may be seeing in the 500ms to 1 sec range. That would be the time from when the switch is pressed until I see a light come on. So the M1 would have to read the input over the RS-485 data bus, process the logic and fire the output over the RS-485 data bus. I wanted to make sure there were not any tweaks that might would help.

My biggest concern at this point is what I should expect to see if I add additional I/O expanders. I have a way to go yet if I reach my goal of automating all the overhead lighting and fans in my home. If the delay increases much more as my system grows this could become a serious WAF issue.

Thanks!
Brian

 

[Spanky]

The M1 sends out onto the RS-485 data bus an output packet which contains the status of all the outputs. Each output module extracts the appropriate data from the output packet according to its address, and sets its outputs accordingly. Therefore if the data in the packet has been set, the outputs will all be set when that one packet transmits.


I believe you said the loop response time for the zone was set to 20 ms. If the zone was using the slow loop response, it would be set to 400 ms by default.

 

[BDHall]

The explanation of how the outputs are updated is helpful. If I am understanding correctly, then the performance of the outputs should not degrade as I add additional output expanders. Is this correct?

Could you ellaborate a little on how the inputs are processed? Will performance degrade as I add additional input expanders?

Thanks!
Brian

 

[BDHall]

The explanation of how the outputs are updated is helpful. If I am understanding correctly, then the performance of the outputs should not degrade as I add additional output expanders. Is this correct?

Could you ellaborate a little on how the inputs are processed? Will performance degrade as I add additional input expanders?

Thanks!
Brian

Any thoughts?

 

[carry15+1]

Hi Brian,

You have a unique M1G installation - can't say I've seen anyone else doing this.

My first concern with your installation is that you may run out of rule space (memory). How much space do you have left, and how many rules do you have now, and what percentage of your installation do you think you have completed?

I'm not speaking for Spanky or Elk, but I would not expect you to see any depreciation in response time when you add additional I/O modules. The added delay in rules processing should be negligible.

John

 

[Spanky]

The M1 data bus works on a BREAK and RESPONSE from the M1 or directed commands from the M1 to a device on the data bus with acknowledge.

When any zone changes on an input expander and once a minute, the input expander breaks the data bus line and the M1 immediately queries for the device that is Breaking the line. When the M1 queries the Breaking device, all the zone status on the input expander is sent back to the M1.

This method keeps the response very fast to any device on the bus since the M1 does not have to zone by zone query for status. Therefore adding more zone input expanders does not slow down the response of a single zone status change.

 

[BDHall]

Spanky,

Thank you for taking the time to explain how M1 inputs and outputs are handled. If I understand correctly, it looks like I should not notice any change in performance as I add additional expanders. Sounds like I should be able to proceed with my project.

John,

Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions, I presently have 37 rules and have used 15% of my available space. My first 8 or so rules are for some stuff involving the keypad and the rest pretty much involve lighting. I do need to go through my rules and do a little cleanup. I have probably completed somewhere around 30 - 40% of my lighting. My plan is to do basic (and more critical) control in the M1 since it is not PC based and should be less likely to go down. I will do some of the fancier (and less critical) stuff with HomeSeer which being PC based offers a lot of additional capability. I am pleased with the M1 and HomeSeer and they seem to complement each other pretty well.

My M1 is still using firmware version 4.3.12 which is what it came with. I held off on upgrading after reading about some issues people were reporting involving rule comments. Any recommendations in regards to upgrading firmware? I was hoping there might be another firmware release soon.

Thanks!
Brian

 

[carry15+1]

Brian,

Looks like rule space won't be an issue for your installation. Are you planning to use any of the security features of the M1G?

What are you using for SSR for your lighting? And is there any dimming capabilities?

I have also held back on upgrading my firmware and software because of a few comments posted here. I have to assume though that if there were real problems there would be a lot more complaints. I seldom feel the need for the absolute latest features and so I wait awhile for all the bugs to shake out. Nobody ever wanted to buy version x.0 of MSDOS

John,

My plan is to do basic (and more critical) control in the M1 since it is not PC based and should be less likely to go down. I will do some of the fancier (and less critical) stuff with HomeSeer which being PC based offers a lot of additional capability. I am pleased with the M1 and HomeSeer and they seem to complement each other pretty well.

My M1 is still using firmware version 4.3.12 which is what it came with. I held off on upgrading after reading about some issues people were reporting involving rule comments. Any recommendations in regards to upgrading firmware? I was hoping there might be another firmware release soon.

Thanks!
Brian

 

[BDHall]

Brian,

Looks like rule space won't be an issue for your installation. Are you planning to use any of the security features of the M1G?

What are you using for SSR for your lighting? And is there any dimming capabilities?

I have also held back on upgrading my firmware and software because of a few comments posted here. I have to assume though that if there were real problems there would be a lot more complaints. I seldom feel the need for the absolute latest features and so I wait awhile for all the bugs to shake out. Nobody ever wanted to buy version x.0 of MSDOS

[/QUOTE]
John,

I plan to add smoke and carbon monoxide alarms to my M1 as soon as I can, and will be thinking about security in the mean time.

I am using Magnecraft Solid State Relays, this is a hocky puck style relay and they are sold under various brand names. There is no dimming capability with my setup, I have ceiling mounted night lights installed pretty much all over the house which seems to satisify my needs for low level lighting.

Brian

 

[carry15+1]

Hi Brian,

Your installation still intrigues me

Did you home-run all your lighting loads and control wiring to a lighting panel? That would really give you some flexibility if your decide to add dimming later.

I would love to see some photos of your panel with the SSR's installed and wired.

Cheers,

John

 

[sandman]

First of all, I have been impressed with my M1G and have found it to be rock solid.


The only significant issue I have had with my M1G so far involves response time. There is a noticeable delay between when a switch is pressed and when a light comes on. Is there anything I can do to improve the response time?

HI Brian

I'm using this principle to manage the outdoor lighting at my place and the pool lighting/pumps. I also went through the issue of moving the inputs to fast response as the normal response, when toggling an output on an expander was a little slow.

I've monitored the RS485 bus statistics to see if I was getting an unusual amount of errors which I wasnt.

I've noticed that the lights seem to turn on faster than turning them off.. this could simply be a perception however it seems to be consistent. I **WAS** going to move the internal lighting control of my house over to the ELK however I've decided to put that on hold. I'm currently using other ethernet based I/O boards wired to my lights that are controlled by HOMESEER to toggle my lights, the response is **VERY** fast however the usual grumble is the PC reliability.

Anyway, I know this is an older post however I've jsut started posting on this board after I've found that I'm not alone, tucked away here in Australia

Cheers..Pete

 

[BDHall]

Pete,

Welcome to CocoonTech. I believe you will find some very friendly and helpful people on this site.

It is good to hear from someone else with an application similiar to mine. I am still working on this project as much as I can, although I will most likely be taking a break for the summer once it gets too hot to work in the attic. I am hopefully somewhere around 50% complete with my overhead lighting and ceiling fans. As I said before, I was a little disappointed with response time when turning lights on or off but I think we are getting used to the slight delay. I could probably eliminate most of the delay by using a different controller with local I/O (which should be faster), but I have grown quite fond of the Elk. Once my lighting is complete I want to add fire and possibly security functionality, which the Elk should be very well suited for since that is what it was designed to do. One of my main goals was to develop a reliable system using standard parts as much as possible to hopefully avoid some grief down the road. I have no regrets about going with a hard wired approach, although it is a lot of work.

Brian

 

[sandman]

HI Brian

Glad to hear its still happening I'd be curious to understand if you're having the same issue as myself when using the "toggle" event action, using an input button on an expander to toggle an output. I'm finding that when I power up the elk, the status of the input is triping the toggle event.....

ANYWAY, I agree that the ELK is a good unit and the more I do, the more I like it. I have found though it does have its limitations as far as event handling goes and I use the Homeseer platform to add functionality to it.

As other posters have said, the ELK manages everything mission critical ie: stuff that can blow up or catch fire if not managed properly The Windows PC adds the "nice things" like announcing events in a very human voice, complex event rules from a raft of devices

I've now added the RCS TR40 thermostat to manage the heating/cooling for the house and the ELK is now running my pool filter so as I said, mission critical sits on the ELK :-0

Lastly the delay in pushing the button, I'm ok with it outside for the pool equipment and even the lighting outside however I'd have to seriously think a lot harder for interior lighting. I've got additional expanders for the interior lighting however I'm going to but that on the back burner for now....

Cheers..Pete