ELK M1G Zone Def 25 - Water Alarm 24 Hr

[shoprat59]

Some background:
 
I have multiple high-water/water leak sensors, most are the two-prong type, but I also have NC float sensors on the my sump and sewage pumps and window well.
1) The 2-prong NO (Chinese made purchased on eBay, can't figure out how to post a link) will not work with EOL resistors - I assume it has something to do with the resistance they are looking for when water touches both prongs? Note: I did test it with the resistor in parallel but it did not work).
2) The NC float values work fine with or without an EOL resistor.
3) I have all these sensors set up as Zone Definition 25 - Water Alarm 24 Hr.  When any of them "trip" I get a loud audible alarm and siren and the system sends me a text message.
4) When I first set up my system I did not understand the value of EOL resistors, I am now adding them to al the "important" sensors (except for the 2-prong leak sensors) that I still have access to.
5) My two prong and float sensors (set to NC) were working perfectly with the water zone definition.  But this weekend I added an EOL resistor (in series) to one of the float sensors and it is no longer working properly. The alarm does recognize that it is tripped BUT it does not give the Water Alarm/Siren nor send the text message.  Note: this issue did not affect the 2-prong sensors - they still work fine.
 
Now my question. Why would adding an EOL to the float sensor cause an issue? (I did change its type from NC to EOL)  Is there a way to fix this or do I have to remove the EOL resistor and go back to an NC configuration?
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Tom
 

 

[Del91574]

You need to determine what is going on with the loop voltage when the float sensor goes into it's alarm state.

 

[shoprat59]

I'm not sure what you mean by loop voltage? Each one of these sensors is on its own zone. I assume you mean the voltage on the sump pump float valve zone I can't test it until tomorrow, but I'm sure it is 7 VDC when the float is in normal position and 13.8 VDC when the float is triggered. I'll post the results ASAP.

Tom

 

[ano]

I'm not sure what you mean by loop voltage?  Each one of these sensors is on it's own zone.  I assume you mean the voltage on the sump pump float valve zone?  I can't test it until tomorrow, but I'm sure it is 12VDC when the float is in normal position and 0 VDC when the float is "triggered."  I'll post the results ASAP.
 
Tom

Do you  understand how EOL's work?  For NO contacts they are wired in series, and for NC contact it goes IN PARALLEL. 
 
I think I have those same Chinese flood sensors. They can be tricky and you might want to try them with the polarity reversed if they don't work the first way.

 

[Del91574]

Do you  understand how EOL's work?  For NO contacts they are wired in series, and for NC contact it goes IN PARALLEL. 
 
I think I have those same Chinese flood sensors. They can be tricky and you might want to try them with the polarity reversed if they don't work the first way.

That's reversed.
 
NC goes in series. NO goes parallel. Closed circuit opens on alarm and open circuit shorts on alarm. My guess, assuming one unit works properly, would be there's a physical issue (broken wire, switch, resistor, etc.) or the loop voltage remains close to a trouble condition.

 

[shoprat59]

Yes, I understand how EOL resistors work, but apparently you don't as you have it backwards - NC uses a series resistor while NO uses a parallel resistor.
 
As I think I made clear in my original post there is no issue with the Chinese sensors and I am NOT asking for help with them.  My issue, as described above, is with the NC float sensor.
 
Again these NC float sensors work perfectly as definition 25 (Water Alarm) sensors when installed as NC BUT do not work correctly when installed as EOL (again with the resistor in SERIES).  This makes no senses to me?
 
Can someone who understands my question, please provide some specific suggestions.
 
Tom

 

[Del91574]

You'd need to see what the voltage on the zone is doing. Could be a ground fault or could be a high resistance fault. You should be able to see both via RP or via a DMM.

 

[ano]

Yes, I understand how EOL resistors work, but apparently you don't as you have it backwards - NC uses a series resistor awhile NO uses a parallel resistor.

Yes you are correct, my fault.

 

[shoprat59]

DELInstallations,
 
                   I got the voltages via RP last night as follows:
1) Closed (ready state): 7.1 - Elk spec is 4.0 - 8.8
2) Open (alarm state): 13.5 - Elk spec is 8.9 - 13.8
 
My results are well within spec.
 
Again when I activated the float the alarm registered but the Water Alarm did not perform properly.  As an experiment I made a single change, I switched the Zone Definition from "25 - Water Alarm 24 hr" to "08 - Burglar 24 hr"
With this single change, when I activated the float the Alarm worked perfectly.  While this makes no sense to me I can only conclude that there is something about the internal configuration of definition 25 that prevents it from working with EOL resistors?
 
Thanks for the help,
 
Tom

 

[Del91574]

ZT might be looking for a short on alarm and open for a trouble condition. Shouldn't have anything to do with the definition.
 
I don't like using those definitions, since they set off the siren, I use AUX types, so it's not 100% clear in my head what the alarm condition is vs. trouble.

 

[johngalt]

For what is is worth I couldn't get my GRI 2600 water sensors to work with an EOL resistor. Whenever I applied water to the sensor it would go into a trouble instead of an alarm condition.

I am just a newbie, so I could have been doing it wrong.

I do like the idea of using the 24Hr Aux alarm. I might have to try that.

 

[video321]

For what is is worth I couldn't get my GRI 2600 water sensors to work with an EOL resistor.

You shouldn't need to though as those are NC they self monitor.

 

[mikefamig]

I searched around and this problem has been mentioned in the past. I have also noticed in my dealings with Elk that they become very tight lipped when they don't have an exact answer to a question which I think is wise. Better to say nothing than to speculate and confuse things further.
 
In post #7 of the following link from 2011 Spanky who is from Elk recommends removing the EOL resistor for NC 24 hr water zone. He doesn't go into why but he clearly says to remove the resistor.
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/18417-trouble-with-nc-non-burglar-zones-and-eol-resister/
 
Mike.
 
EDIT
 
Keep in mind that 2011 is five years ago and there have been firmware upgrades but you have to consider that there may be a problem with the system here.

 

[Del91574]

Spanky was saying something else here.....
 
The water ZT is looking for 3 states on EOLR, so that means the detection circuit (float) must be wired as a NO device with the resistor in parallel at the device. An open circuit generates a trouble, a short generates an alarm and normal is the 2.2K EOLR.
 
Using the circuit as NC, the float opens the circuit, which is only one of the 2 states the circuit can detect using that method....no different than a trouble condition (circuit open).
 
When you add the EOLR, you now become a 3 state zone, which is what Spanky stated, so an alarm condition is a short circuit, normal is EOLR and fault is open circuit.
 
The reason why the OP isn't getting an alarm is the circuit is designed for a NO device, so an open circuit is a "trouble" condition as far as the panel is concerned and not an alarm. Just like fire or CO circuits.

 

[shoprat59]

Mike and Del, thanks for the informative posts.  I don't understand why ELK would limit the Water Alarm Definition to using NC/NO/NO EOL but not NC EOL; maybe because that is the form of their water sensors? Regardless your posts and my testing confirm that is the case. To me this is an unnecessary design limitation, but I will switch to an Aux alarm so I can use my NC sensor with an EOL. I just wish ELK would have included this information in their Installation Manual, that would have saved me (and those that responded to my post) a bunch of wasted time.
 
Tom