Finalizing Elk security setup, and have a few lingering questions.

[Sacedog]

I am getting ready to purchase my Elk system for security, and have a couple of questions. I thought it would also be beneficial to explain what I am looking to accomplish, so that you could suggest alternatives, etc. I'll be integrating HA later using a PC with CQC.

- Keypads in Master, Upstairs Hall, and Garage Entry
- 2 indoor sirens
- outdoor siren with strobe
- 10 Motion detectors
- 8 smokes
- 6 Heat / ROR
- 4 CO2
- 1 Natural Gas
- 4 Water sensors
- 24 Window Contacts
- 15 door contacts
- 2 roll up door contacts
- 7 misc contacts
- 7 Glass breaks

Total of 88 sensors/contacts

1) Do I need the glass breaks, if I have PIRs in the same locations?
2) I had planned on home running all contacts; is this a bad idea?
3) Will I need more than the standard M1G power supply to power all of the powered sensors (smoke, fire, etc.)?
4) If I home run all contacts, do I simply install a Data Bus Hub, and additional 16 Zone Input Expanders, in order to accommodate all zones?
5) What is the typical setup for smokes? Should I set up a few "zones", or have each smoke as a separate zone?
6) I was planning on using Belden 22/2 and 22/4 for contacts and sensors, and Belden 18/4 Fire for smokes, heats, keypads, and sirens. Any suggestions on changes?
7) Since I will be getting CQC, does it make most sense to control my thermostat and lighting with the HA server, instead of the Elk M1?

Thanks for any help.

 

[rfdesq]

My .02.

1. If you want to try to stop them before they get in, assuming they break glass, use a glass break also.
2. Not a bad idea but may be a waste of time, cable, if you strategically place an M1XIN, then run a single cable from the XIN to the DBH.
3. Yes, if you use an ELK siren and strobe you have exceeded the panel specs.
4. Depends on whether you are using two or four wire smokes. If you have any need for temperature sensors they have to go to the main panel zones. Basically, a DBH and XIN's will do it.
5. Two or four wire?
6. It is Cat 5 or 6 for keypads and from the XIN to the DBH. I use 16/2 for my sirens.
7. I'll let a CQC user answer.

 

[shenandoah75]

I had purchased a databus hub and decided not to use it (never used/installed)... paid around $35 from asihome...

PM me if you're interested...

thx
-brad

 

[IVB]

1) Yes, rfdesq said why
2) No, although if you have multiple levels, an M1XIN per floor is a pretty nice idea. Or, per cluster, would certainly make wire running simpler.
3) Yes
4) yes
5) I prefer independent zones, so I can tell exactly where the fire is. I don't yet know how this helps me, but it's not much harder to do that so I did. Also, 2wire *must* be daisy chained and to Z16 at that.
6) If they're grouped together, you could just use CAT5 for the contacts/sensors. Simpler than buying different types of cable (from someone who initially did just that)
7) Personal preference. I like using CQC for it all, so I only have to learn one rules engine and put rules in one place. Steve likes to put it all on the Elk, as he thinks PC-based controllers should be used for GUI. Makes no substantive difference one way or the other.

 

[Sacedog]

So, how do you add power to the panel to drive the additional componants?

I had planned on using 4-wire smokes. Any reason 2-wire are better than 4?

I was planning on running 2 Cat5e to each keypad location. 1 for the current keypad, the 2nd in case I wanted to add a touchscreen later. I will also have sparkey run power there as well. I forgot to put the Cat5e in my first post.

Good idea on distributing the XIN to strategic places in the house. That would make wiring a lot easier. Unfortunately, my wiring closet ended up downstairs, on the far left side of the house. So no downside to installing a couple XINs in remote locations? No power needed for the remote XINs either? If no to both of those, I will definately be making a design change to distribute the XINs.

 

[shenandoah75]

I concur with IVB on #2...

I did a two story retro install where some contacts were in place. Even on new runs, it was easier for me to put the Elk in a central closet, expanders on the far ends of the house which had only 1 story and access to attics is relatively easy. (Also have one in my outbuilding too). Bottom line - 3 expanders, and currently nothing in the 16 zones on the M1 itself. A lot less wiring and it gives me options down the road as i have a lot of free zones everywhere...

Also think about where you really want that output/relay board. I have the 16 output expander and two relays boards. All but one or two of my eventual uses for those relays are located near the garage so putting them in the same can as one of the input expanders was nice. 4 slots in a 14" box gives you a lot of room for wiring (both in/output)... Access from those two remote locations were very near the keypads too (and my 485 run to the outbuilding)


NOTE- even if you needed power for VAUX/SAUX or relays, it is easier to run 8/18 sprinkler wire from the elk to each remote location along with your CAT5 for the input expander for such needs. (just spent 3 nights adding that this week in the attics doing this very thing - but worth it). I now have power at 2/3 input expanders. Getting it to the other corner of the house is not going to be easy/fun, but i still plan on doin it...

-brad

 

[IVB]

So, how do you add power to the panel to drive the additional componants?

I had planned on using 4-wire smokes. Any reason 2-wire are better than 4?

Components meaning the remote M1XIN's? CAT5 back to the data bus hub for signal, and based on load you could even share the 2 wires used for power out of that.

I used 4-wire smokes cuz I wanted one per zone. Dunno if they're better or worse.

 

[Sacedog]

5) I prefer independent zones, so I can tell exactly where the fire is. I don't yet know how this helps me, but it's not much harder to do that so I did. Also, 2wire *must* be daisy chained and to Z16 at that.

So each smoke then would need its own EOL resistor and Supervised Relay? Is the relay an Elk part?

6) If they're grouped together, you could just use CAT5 for the contacts/sensors. Simpler than buying different types of cable (from someone who initially did just that)

That makes good sense. I'm looking at my project list, and have 11 different types of cable already!

7) Personal preference. I like using CQC for it all, so I only have to learn one rules engine and put rules in one place. Steve likes to put it all on the Elk, as he thinks PC-based controllers should be used for GUI. Makes no substantive difference one way or the other.

That was my initial thought. I love your setup, and will probably go that route

 

[IVB]

5) I prefer independent zones, so I can tell exactly where the fire is. I don't yet know how this helps me, but it's not much harder to do that so I did. Also, 2wire *must* be daisy chained and to Z16 at that.

So each smoke then would need its own EOL resistor and Supervised Relay? Is the relay an Elk part?

Yes on the EOL, I learned about relays after I ran the wiring so I need to finish that research and see what they do.

 

[Sacedog]

Components meaning the remote M1XIN's? CAT5 back to the data bus hub for signal, and based on load you could even share the 2 wires used for power out of that.

I was meaning at the main M1G. If I have the M1G, with the power supply that comes with it, do I need a different power supply if I will have 80+ zones (many of them powered for smokes, glass break, etc.), plus the 3 sirens and strobe? I'm guessing that the vendor I purchase from will have the best answer on that, nased on what I put into the system.

It seems that Automated Outlet is the vendor of choice. Is that the general consensus?

 

[shenandoah75]

i would pull the specs on each device and add the amps and compare with Elk's rated power output (VAUX is 1.25 amp and SAUX (smoke) is 1.1 amp)

I haven't specs seen all of your devices, but most devices draw several mA (even when tripped)... i think you're close to being ok without an external supply (save the common on siren/strobe above which would likely consume alot of VAUX power when in alarm - i only use the strobe). If the siren is the big consumer, you could get a dedicated 12V wall wart and feed the contact 3 relay that way instead of via VAUX (some might say you won't have power in a power failure, but for an external siren, i would question the benefit. If needed, you can do what i did and drive your A/C feed into the elk panel off a UPS)

 

[Steve]

I pretty much agree with the above so far. The main difference between a 2-wire and 4-wire smoke is that the 2-wire ones all go on Zone 16 and they all act together in series (you will need a reversing relay). The 4-wire smoke does give you the option to put it on any zone and hence you could group them however you wanted, even 1 per zone. In a large multi-story home this could have some benefit, but keep in mind you will need a power supervision relay for each zone and with alot of zones it can get a bit pricey. But it is a life safety system and if you have a home that large then the extra shouldn't matter I guess.

For power, you could add an Elk-P624. You would need that part, the transformer and a battery. There are also larger supplies available if needed.

7) Personal preference. I like using CQC for it all, so I only have to learn one rules engine and put rules in one place. Steve likes to put it all on the Elk, as he thinks PC-based controllers should be used for GUI. Makes no substantive difference one way or the other.

Yes, I do put as much as possible thru the Elk because I believe dedicated panels like that are inherintly more reliable than pc's. That debate can get religious, and imho while pc's can be pretty reliable, as long as thery still have moving parts like a hard drive and the O/S or software can change, a firmware based dedicated controller will have better reliabilty. But I also want to be clear that the pc is certainly used for more than just gui. It will complement the panel and do all of the functions the panel can't. I like to think of it that the panel does the important/critical stuff and the pc does more of the 'fluff'. In addition to the touchscreens, CQC also does TTS, CID, IR, Web, Weather, etc for me, and pretty much whatever is on the Elk can be controlled via CQC as well. Now, I will give you that since CQC is software based, there is more flexibility and it is easier to create or enhance drivers. A stat can really go either place since regardless if the HA component goes away, you still have manual control. And I think the CQC driver is a bit more robust (features), but unless I needed the extra features I would probably still hang it off the Elk myself.

 

[rfdesq]

So, how do you add power to the panel to drive the additional componants?

There are several threads on the subject, just do a search here. Main thing to remember is to tie the negatives from the main panel to all of the aux power supplies. I added an ELK 4 amp supply with battery backup. I fed the first DBH with power from the 4 amp supply, it powers the keypads, M1XIN's, sirens, strobes, etc. etc. I got the power requirement for the M1 itself down to 284 ma. The 4 amp supply is up to 3.770 amps in full alarm, still within its rating.

 

[brotsten]

The 4-wire smoke does give you the option to put it on any zone and hence you could group them however you wanted, even 1 per zone. In a large multi-story home this could have some benefit, but keep in mind you will need a power supervision relay for each zone and with alot of zones it can get a bit pricey.

I home-ran all my 4 wire smokes contacts, but daisy chained the power between all of them with a supervision relay at the last detector. That only requires one input for power status to all the smokes.

Brian

 

[Sacedog]

I home-ran all my 4 wire smokes contacts, but daisy chained the power between all of them with a supervision relay at the last detector. That only requires one input for power status to all the smokes.

Brian

I LIKE this idea! So you get individual zones for each smoke, and only need one relay.