Hardwired Lighting System Using Cat5

[TonyStewart]

I came home and unplugger the distribution module (where all the wires are landed) from the ELK interface. With it unplugged all dimmers consistently do a nice soft off (maybe 15 seconds) upon double tap on off AND when ramping up they do not have the hesitation that they had before.

Plugged the distribution module back in and the soft off on double off tap is gone and the hesitation is back. TS I'm not crazy...i swear.

PS I replaced the 2 flaky switches i decribes earlier in the thread with new ones, same location, same wiring method and the new ones are working just fine. These 2 switches will be in the mail back to you for investigation.

Stil can't find any ALC dimmers that fade off. I am going to set up some brand new ones (right out of the box) in case newer rev levels behave differently?

Were the dimmers that fade off ever programmed through CQC? Could it be that they are remembering a previous serial command to change the fade rate?

Call to get an RA number, receiving may not accept a package without an RA on the box. 864-663-0011 ask for me.

TS

 

[rosenqui]

Stil can't find any ALC dimmers that fade off. I am going to set up some brand new ones (right out of the box) in case newer rev levels behave differently?

All of my ALC dimmers (circa 2000) do the "fade off" if you double-tap them off. A single tap off does an immediate off, a single tap on turns the load on to the previous level, and a double tap on goes immediately to full brightness.

The switches are connected to an HAI controller but I believe they behave this way with or without the controller present/active.

 

[beelzerob]

Were the dimmers that fade off ever programmed through CQC? Could it be that they are remembering a previous serial command to change the fade rate?

No, we can say that for sure. Mavric's dimmers fade off, and he's never connected them to CQC. Also, although there IS an adjustable fade rate available through the RS232 protocol, the effect is ONLY available when commanding a level change through the RS232...not from a switch.

There are no switch behavior adjustments available through the RS232 protocol.

 

[charliebarns]

Were the dimmers that fade off ever programmed through CQC? Could it be that they are remembering a previous serial command to change the fade rate?

No, we can say that for sure. Mavric's dimmers fade off, and he's never connected them to CQC. Also, although there IS an adjustable fade rate available through the RS232 protocol, the effect is ONLY available when commanding a level change through the RS232...not from a switch.

There are no switch behavior adjustments available through the RS232 protocol.

I have a 600W dimmer for test purposes (and I wanted to see if I could swap out the LED). Although I will be using it with HAI, it has never been hooked up to anything other than HV. One press on brings the light to the last known preset, Two presses on (quick) the light goes to full power. One press off the light does a nice dim from full to nothing, two presses the light goes instantly off. This switch is out of the box, no modifications. Hope this helps.

CB

 

[beelzerob]

One press off the light does a nice dim from full to nothing, two presses the light goes instantly off. This switch is out of the box, no modifications. Hope this helps.

Wha wha wha WHAT??? So YOU have one of the magic cool dimmer switches?? It's default (single press) function is a nice slow dim to off, and it's alternate (double press) function is instant off??? Man, it's like Charlie and the Chocolate factory...you got the golden ticket!

*grumble*

When did you get that switch, Charlie. I purchased mine (the latest) about mid last year (whenever Setnet's last switch sale was). I wonder if you have a newer one...something with a new firmware. Maybe it's time to start comparing those firmware numbers (I believe they're on a sticker on the side of each switch.

Oooo, I'd be so miffed if I'm stuck with these switches because I didn't put off lighting control longer....

Of course, the only remaining test is for you to actually hook it up to something that controls it, and see if that behavior changes 1) at all, and 2) permanently.

 

[TonyStewart]

One press off the light does a nice dim from full to nothing, two presses the light goes instantly off. This switch is out of the box, no modifications. Hope this helps.

Wha wha wha WHAT??? So YOU have one of the magic cool dimmer switches?? It's default (single press) function is a nice slow dim to off, and it's alternate (double press) function is instant off??? Man, it's like Charlie and the Chocolate factory...you got the golden ticket!

*grumble*

When did you get that switch, Charlie. I purchased mine (the latest) about mid last year (whenever Setnet's last switch sale was). I wonder if you have a newer one...something with a new firmware. Maybe it's time to start comparing those firmware numbers (I believe they're on a sticker on the side of each switch.

Oooo, I'd be so miffed if I'm stuck with these switches because I didn't put off lighting control longer....

Of course, the only remaining test is for you to actually hook it up to something that controls it, and see if that behavior changes 1) at all, and 2) permanently.

I'm beginning to fully understand the issue. I must admit that in earlier threads I was not clear on what some of you were saying.

Just tested a few more switches. Some of which are older than 3 years. The single press is instant off and the double press is slow fade to off.
I also opened a new box with firmware version 1.7 and it behaves the same way.

The dimmers I tested were -21(with LED). All behave with single press is an instant off. I have no -11(No LED) dimmers to test at this time. And per my sources at OnQ, they have not had a firmware change throughout this time period. I will ask the desing engineer for a clarification when I can reach him.

Are yours the -11 versions that I have not tested?

Note that over the years, homeowners HATE the slow single press doing a fade. The X-10 switches we sold for years had that feature and it was a source of constant complaints and calls to program it to an instant off with a single press. Installers tend to disagree over this feature. But homeowners never liked it as a rule.

So the most popular choice to sell would be a single press - instant off. That may explain why current production models have that as a feature. In my case, I would hate the slow fade off. I want it off fast with a single press. In your case that is not so.

One reason they hated the slow fade to off was because when they left the room, they always had a thought that the light did not turn off. It was anuisance to them. They wanted to see the light go off before they left the room!

TS

 

[beelzerob]

Ya, I can see how this would be a "deal breaker" for some people no matter HOW the switches acted. Pity the companies that have to cater to conflicting and changing fads....

I can see how some might not like the super-slow fade....it takes several seconds after pressing the button to notice if the light really IS dimming down. So you might be annoyed thinking you didn't hit the switch hard enough. (edit: What Tony said!)

On the one hand, the OnQ switches are pretty spiffy in that they offer BOTH functions. On the other hand, it's a shame that this can't be a user-selectable function. You'd think that would please everyone....

 

[felixrosbergen]

I am reallu shocked at the number of different behaviour that we see and in my case only some issues or features (depends on perspective) are consistantly repeatable.

I'm quite sure my HV and LV installation are ok. The cat5 runs i personally put in through conduits so it's unlikely that the cat5 is pinched/nailed somewhere.

Is it worthwhile for us to record the model firmware version with the various issues?

 

[beelzerob]

Sounds like Tony was saying there were no firmware changes for the past several years. I know all my switches are the same, though I got my first dimmer in late 2007/early 2008, and my most recent ones about half a year ago.

Tony, were you indicating that there might be a function difference between LED switches and non-LED switches? CharlieB, are your switches with the LED? Sounds like they are, since you're looking at swapping them out. Are there only one kind of LED switches (where the LED is back behind the switch and bezel)? Because if so, those are the kind I have....the dim green LED you can barely see unless you're looking straight at the switch.

 

[TonyStewart]

Sounds like Tony was saying there were no firmware changes for the past several years. I know all my switches are the same, though I got my first dimmer in late 2007/early 2008, and my most recent ones about half a year ago.

Tony, were you indicating that there might be a function difference between LED switches and non-LED switches? CharlieB, are your switches with the LED? Sounds like they are, since you're looking at swapping them out. Are there only one kind of LED switches (where the LED is back behind the switch and bezel)? Because if so, those are the kind I have....the dim green LED you can barely see unless you're looking straight at the switch.

I am grasping at straws. Nothing yet adds up. Your word is good enough for me. So I desire to champion the cause. There are some dimmers that are behaving differently than others and I don't as yet know why. I will dig in deeper. But I can't say when. And yes I am curious about the non led -11 (-11 is for white) switches (but I doubt that this is a factor). I will set up a test bench consisting of all possible scenarios and run this whole thing through it's paces.

I would like to hear how many people prefer instant off with one press over fade off with one press. As I stated, I hate a slow fade to off. That would drive me crazy and I already know what my wife thinks. She would make me change the dimmers to another technology.

If I get a consensus then it might be something to share with OnQ over how all switches ship as factory defaulted.

TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Ya, I can see how this would be a "deal breaker" for some people no matter HOW the switches acted. Pity the companies that have to cater to conflicting and changing fads....

I can see how some might not like the super-slow fade....it takes several seconds after pressing the button to notice if the light really IS dimming down. So you might be annoyed thinking you didn't hit the switch hard enough. (edit: What Tony said!)

On the one hand, the OnQ switches are pretty spiffy in that they offer BOTH functions. On the other hand, it's a shame that this can't be a user-selectable function. You'd think that would please everyone....

Seems to me that although this would be a simple firmware change, an installer would need some method to configure the switch. Like a handheld programmer or software etc. Any changes like that would just might require engineering and R&D. Making it less likely to be offered.

One of the long range strengths of the ALC product line is it's age. It has been shipping for over 14 years with little maintenance required from OnQ (stand alone controllers and modules came later). That makes it an easy product to keep on the menu. Ask for changes and that changes.

Still I will address this issue with OnQ for us all! It never hurts to ask!

TS

 

[charliebarns]

Ya, I can see how this would be a "deal breaker" for some people no matter HOW the switches acted. Pity the companies that have to cater to conflicting and changing fads....

I can see how some might not like the super-slow fade....it takes several seconds after pressing the button to notice if the light really IS dimming down. So you might be annoyed thinking you didn't hit the switch hard enough. (edit: What Tony said!)

On the one hand, the OnQ switches are pretty spiffy in that they offer BOTH functions. On the other hand, it's a shame that this can't be a user-selectable function. You'd think that would please everyone....

Seems to me that although this would be a simple firmware change, an installer would need some method to configure the switch. Like a handheld programmer or software etc. Any changes like that would just might require engineering and R&D. Making it less likely to be offered.

One of the long range strengths of the ALC product line is it's age. It has been shipping for over 14 years with little maintenance required from OnQ (stand alone controllers and modules came later). That makes it an easy product to keep on the menu. Ask for changes and that changes.

Still I will address this issue with OnQ for us all! It never hurts to ask!

TS

the one I have installed in the chocolate factory is a LED dimmer, part # 363143-21 HW: T FW: 1.7 DC:0409

cb

 

[beelzerob]

Sounds good Tony. Let us know what kind of info/data we can get you. Maybe even a specific test procedure so we're sure we're all doing the same actions.

I know how I'd like the light to dim when pressed OFF, but I'd probably better ask the more important opinion first....

 

[felixrosbergen]

Is there anybody else out there using the ELK<>ALC interface?

I have i think 12 dimmer installed now and am still seeing some pretty weird %*^*&.

- Dimmer appear to have different sensitivity to touching the paddle as far as how fast they fade on or up.
- Dimmer don't always seem to remember their preset
- When previously dimmed and then double tapped to full the dimmer wil hesitate halfway through the ramp and then continu.
- The double OFF tap doesnt work (although according to TS it's not a feature to begin with) when connected to the controller, when not connected it works just fine.

I've been carefull not to pinch LV wires. Quite of few of these don't even have auxes installed so i cut the LV aux wires, stagger them and tap them together.

I would love to hear from somebody that has the same setup to see how they are doing.

I still like ALC, but do wish it woudl be a bit more predictable when controlled locally. It has never failed yet to respond to scene switch scene or ELK rules, so that part seems rock solid. And thats the part i was worried about.

Excuse my venting...I'm a bit frustrated...it will pass again...

I wish TS lived in Connecticut...lol

Oh...while i'm on a rant...when programming a scene switch and you want to add a dimmer to the scene the manual sais to jus reteach the scene...this nice and dandy...but I have 3 scene switches current with 2 more planned and each is intended to have an ALL OFF 'scene'. My installationis still growing and from what it sounds like i need to reteach each scene switch each time i wish to add a dimmer....so 5 times i have to set the scene switch to learn mode and run around the entire house pressing all the dimmer to OFF. THERE HAS GO TO BE A BETTER WAY. Can the scenetech software help with this? And how can i run the scenetech software on the ALC<>ELK interface?

I am considering just using the scene switches as ELK inputs and programming the scene in the ELK. This woudl be much more flexible. Create Rule to turn of all the light and make each scene swtich trigger the rule. Add a dimmer? Just edit the rule. But programming scene via ELK rules eat up a lot of rule space and worse, ELK processes the lighting commands rather slowly. Turning 14 lights of in my house takes the ELK about 14 seconds...so having a nice coordinate scene change wouldn't work very well...maybe i don't have somethign setup right in the ELK.

OK...rant over..

 

[beelzerob]

- Dimmer appear to have different sensitivity to touching the paddle as far as how fast they fade on or up.

That's a new one. I just tried it...nope. Same rate no matter how hard I press on the switch. There's a definite point at which you can feel the dimmer is being pressed "on", and at that moment, the lights come on and ramp up.

- Dimmer don't always seem to remember their preset

Ya know, there's been a few times where I've wondered about that. I keep wondering why the garage lights have a preset at all, I keep setting the preset to full (who needs dimmed garage lights??). However, I can't exclude the humans from the equation...I think someone in the house is just using the switch wrong, holding it too long, whichever. Some people here hold the button, some just press it. So I think they're the reason for those random anomalies.

- When previously dimmed and then double tapped to full the dimmer wil hesitate halfway through the ramp and then continu.

I still only see that if I take my time with the 2nd tap.

- The double OFF tap doesnt work (although according to TS it's not a feature to begin with) when connected to the controller, when not connected it works just fine.

Mysterious off dimming works on double OFF, whether controller is plugged in or not (didn't disconnect wires).

ALC<>CQC, though. *shrug* It would be interesting to hear from another ALC/ELK'er