Help Tan w/ AV: 1-Whole Hse Speakers

[tanstaaf1]

In this topic, I'm asking for help in good speakers to consider for my large house. I've done my best to read the FAQs and search for previous discussions on this topic but I've found rather little coverage; if this topic has, in fact, been well travelled recently -- either here or elsewhere -- please direct me....

By way of background, I'm inhabiting an 8k ft rennovation project with nearly all the walls opened up or so disgusting they need to be opened up and replaced. I am feeling reasonably okay regarding how to proceed with lighting issues (I'm going Insteon and have abandoned any thoughts of hard-wire control). After reading the recent discussion of recommended wires to run and Robbins FAQ on how to select cable, I think I have enough to proceed with that (which, unfortunately, will start with my having to rip out much of the wire that is already in place as I now understand it is suboptimal for various reasons).

I'm still hung up primarily with the whole house audio/video stuff. I'm thinking of this aspect in terms of: (1) speakers and speaker wire to install now (2) selecting components for streaming audio/video and (3) intercom system.

In this thread I'm asking primarily for recommendations for speaker selection, thinking I'll ask more on other components in another thread... (but speak up anyway if you have strong opinion on anything I say)

I intend to have separate (but interconnected for music purposes) home theatre and primary music listening rooms (both areas will be in large areas of maybe 30 by 40 feet and up to 23 feet high). I will probably go with a Paradigm system or equivalent in each case with floor standing speakers. Theatre speakers will be placed per Crutchfield recommendation on speaker placement

I'm leaning toward a Russound CAV6.6 Russound CAV6.6 & associated hardware for audio distribution. One good thing about the Russound is that is supports intercom announcement muting and, I guess, will take commands from a HA controller (I currently have Stargate but may jump ship to Elk or something once I know more).

However, I'm open for a better suggestion and I found the recently revived thread concerning the "do-it-yourself" NowPlaying approach very fascinating. (If I followed that okay, the guy distributes digitally throughout the house with separate used 200 watt amps picked up on the cheap in the various areas - thus maximizing flexibilty and minimizing long distance stringing of speaker cable ... which is a problem in my case). I am probably well advised to stick with an "all in one" solution such as Russound, I know, but I am concerned about things such as not enough zones (I could use 15 ;-), speaker wire lengths, and limited power.

Anyway, with that introduction (and feel free to comment on anything) I wanted to primarily ask for specific recommendations for low cost/ high value "whole house" speakers to distribute throughout the house. If I can select theese I can wire them now and proceed to close my walls. I'm thinking something like:

3 sets of outdoor speakers
10 sets of indoor general speakers (pretty good music and hopefully double use in an annoucement/intercom system).

For the indoor speakers, I'm interested in recommendations for both surface mounted and IN wall/ceiling speakers, as in wall, although more convenient/esthetic [a] supposedly has less sound quality and I have difficulty with ceiling/wall access in many cases anyway. Still, the esthetics of having flushmount speakers is appealing.

I would rather not go beyond, say, $100/speaker ($2600 for 13) but I will if someone feels the increase in value is well warranted. If you have a recommendation on a vendor, I'd appreciate that too.

Thanks for any suggestions. This is a great forum with the most helpful and savvy group of people I've ever met on the net.

 

[Rupp]

I bought the 8" speakers from Automated Outlet. I use them for my whole house audio system and while most announcements do not display the quality when I play music they sound great.

http://www.automatedoutlet.com/home.php?cat=80

 

[bfisher]

Your posts asks a lot of questions - many good ones. Like so much in automation, it's a matter of personal preference...

I chose to go with seperate receiver/amps for each zone - mostly because I had many amps I could use already (save cost) and because I can get excellent sound/power (performance) out of this setup (many "all-in-one" multi-zone boxes don't put out as much power). I hope by tomorrow to post my AV portion of my cocoon (I'm almost done writing it) and hopefully it will give you some ideas.

As for speakers, I have been very pleased with HTD's in-wall's. Their HW-W80's are very good sound for the money (I've paid a lot more and not been as happy). One thing you will note with most in-wall speakers - you will need a seperate subwoofer. They just don't get deep enough to deliver the bottom frequencies. I usually have a stand-alone sub but may try an in-wall sub for my final zone.

Another speaker brand I've been very (VERY) happy with is Definitive Technology. All of my theater speakers are DT - and every speaker model of theirs I've heard is very nice. I have also used some of their in-walls and have always been very happy with them. They are significantly more money, but the sound is fabulous. Their new Mythos on-walls are very sweet sounding as well.

 

[betrickey]

You may look into the Channel Plus MDS6A system. I have this system installed in my home and have been very happy with it. The over all price was considerably less than Russound. As far as speakers go you can only expect so much from $100 per pair speakers. If you don't mind spending the money twice buy cheap speakers that can be switched out later with better quality speakers of the same rough-in opening size.

 

[Rupp]

I totally agree on the Definitive Technology speakers. I have the BP6's and center/surronds I love them.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You may look into the Channel Plus MDS6A system.  I have this system installed in my home and have been very happy with it.  The over all price was considerably less than Russound.

Hi betrickey;

I'm curious how much that six zone solution was (ball park figure). Does it include the keypads? Is that "40 Watts per channel" RMS or peak?

Reason I'm curious is because Russound is coming out with a less expensive line, which requires you to run all the speakers back to a central amp unit (i.e. not to a room keypad which provided the amplification) and I'm curious how this system compares.

I saw this unit at CES (with new style of keypads) and will do a little blurb on them later. They are supposed to EMail me a catalog price.

You can view this new CAA66 line HERE.

EDIT: A Russound CAA66 with six KP6 keypads is around $1400!

Regards,

BSR

 

[tanstaaf1]

You may look into the Channel Plus MDS6A system. I have this system installed in my home and have been very happy with it. The over all price was considerably less than Russound. As far as speakers go you can only expect so much from $100 per pair speakers. If you don't mind spending the money twice buy cheap speakers that can be switched out later with better quality speakers of the same rough-in opening size.

I'd rather double or more the price per pair, as necessary, and be happy the first time - I ought to have learned that lesson before. (I have a pair of now ancient Bose 901-II speakers I still enjoy as backup, while all my other components have gone through numerous generations. Good speakers are the only component I know that don't seem to become obsolete in 18 mos. Less than adequate speakers are obsolete at the moment of purchase ;-)

So, consider there to be no limit on the price. If I can hear the difference I'll probably be willing to consider the price ( $250K German Physiks )

I think I was thinking that sound was going to be relatively modest no matter how much I spent because the showroom I've listened to so far haven't impressed me too much. I wasn't even thinking about adding a *3rd* speaker -- for bass -- to each room in order to make up the difference.

I'll check out the MDS6A, also.

 

[tanstaaf1]

...I chose to go with seperate receiver/amps for each zone - mostly because I had many amps I could use already (save cost) and because I can get excellent sound/power (performance) out of this setup (many "all-in-one" multi-zone boxes don't put out as much power).

...One thing you will note with most in-wall speakers - you will need a seperate subwoofer. They just don't get deep enough to deliver the bottom frequencies. I usually have a stand-alone sub but may try an in-wall sub for my final zone.

But isn't a separate subwoofer precluded by something such as Russound (I think it only has support for two speakers per zone)? If so, and if there aren't any in-wall's that have another way around this, then this is a MAJOR factor I've not seen discussed.

 

[elcano]

I have a pair of ProCinema 100 Definitive Technology and they are very, very good - however you pay a high premium for just a marginal improvement over other brands.

Paradigms are an excellent option too.

While I have never purchased from this people (dont know the quality of their service), Parts Express have a huge assortment of speakers for any coincivable need. Their brands are not comercially known (compared to DT and Paradigm) but they are supposed to sell the same drivers that speaker makers use to build their high price speakers. Prices are not bad compared to the specs. You might buy a pair for testing and check if they allow returns.

 

[WayneW]

Reason I'm curious is because Russound is coming out with a less expensive line, which requires you to run all the speakers back to a central amp unit (i.e. not to a room keypad which provided the amplification) and I'm curious how this system compares.

The CAV6.6 requires you to run the speaker wires back to the main controller for the six main zones. You can use A-bus keypads with built in amps for 4 sub zones.

 

[Steve]

I am probably well advised to stick with an "all in one" solution such as Russound, I know, but I am concerned about things such as not enough zones (I could use 15 ;-), speaker wire lengths, and limited power.

I'm sorry I can't add any value to this thread (actually I am learning too), but just wanted to note you can chain Russound systems together to create more zones, up to 36 I think.

 

[bfisher]

But isn't a separate subwoofer precluded by something such as Russound (I think it only has support for two speakers per zone)? If so, and if there aren't any in-wall's that have another way around this, then this is a MAJOR factor I've not seen discussed.

Many floor-standing subs will accept speaker-level inputs. If the Russound system doesn't have RCA jacks for seperate subs - you could wire to the sub via speaker-wire.

It depends on your tastes - for me, I require a sub. If you use your speakers for background music - you might be able to get by without one. For us, ours are on all the time - sometimes quite loud and it just doesn't sound right without one.

One really nice thing about subs - they can be hidden (behind something, not in something). Low frequencies are harder to locate (without concentrating) so they do not need to be centered between your speakers to sound right. You can wire them most places that are aestetically pleasing and they will sound good (unless it's in your theater - then location is critical).

 

[markthomas]

Sorry, I'm not going to help with the speakers here, but I think there are a few things that need to be done before selecting speakers. The first is planning your zones. This needs careful consideration. Many people start out assuming they want one zone per pair of speakers...this is a big mistake, especially in larger homes or open floorplans. To fill an area with music or make adjustments, you'd have to run to several keypads--a pain in the butt.

Multiple pairs of speakers per zone is the way to go, but it requires some planning because you'll need to plan for separate amps and placement of impedance-matched volume controls. Make sure to give it some thought.

Also, sorry if I missed out on discussions that led to your (tentative?) selection of Russound, but if you haven't investigated the new digital distribution systems like Zon (www.zonaudio.com) and Sonos (www.sonos.com), you probably should. For those of you familiar with Sonos and wondering why I included it here, they just announced at CES support for traditional whole-house audio wiring (centrally-amplified in-wall speakers etc.)

 

[bfisher]

Mark makes a good point... most of my zones are several rooms. Basically a zone is anywhere you could hear from room to room (you wouldn't want two different things playing in rooms that have an open entryway, etc). If there is a door that can be closed, I usually broke the zones there...

example, one of my zones covers kitchen, breakfast nook, and den because those three rooms share the same sound space - you wouldn't want different music playing in any of those rooms. Also - you wouldn't want to go to all 3 of those rooms to turn on each room - much easier to turn it on in 1 place...

 

[un-wired]

The CAA66 is actually a reasonable option at 1400 dollars. (it will be up on our site at this price very soon) The new system allows for daisy chaining up to 36 zones as well as the first two zones having line outputs to allow you to use a secondary amp for powering larger speakers in a room where more volume is required. That line out can also goto a 5.1 or 7.1 system.