Homeseer Message Board Censoring posts!

[sic0048]

I've been a member of the Homeseer message board since 2005 when I was researching home automation systems. I ended up going with CQC and didn't use the HS site for a long time. Recently I started trying to contribute on that site.

Today there was a thread started by a person trying to consider Homeseer vs. Control4. I normally try not to bad mouth HS or push CQC or other systems on that forum, I thought this was a situation where I would point out a potential issue with Homeseer. I posted a reply that basically said that one issue a potential HS user needs to be aware of is how they handle their plugins. Specifically the fact that they tend to be closed so that only the creator can modify the plugin. So there are plenty of examples on the HS forums where users started using a plugin only to have the creator stop supporting the plugin for whatever reason. This leaves the user in a hard spot and many times the user has to start using another plugin (and potentially paying again) that is currently being supported.

I went on to say that no automation system is perfect including the competition, and that a potential purchaser should research all the potential systems out there and make an informed decision. I mentioned other potential software systems like CQC, Elvie, and Premise. I did not try to say one was better than the other or even try to give pros/cons of other systems or link to other systems. They were only mentioned by name.

Anyway, I find my original post removed without any notice or warning from the Admins.

So I guess Homeseer actively censors their user forum. It's unfortunate to see.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent a little. Obviously I cannot vent on HS forum since it will only be removed as well.

EDIT - just an update - my original post suddenly has reappeared. I guess it was reinstated by the admins for whatever reason. Just to be clear - the wording of my original post was never changed by the admins. But deleting a post completely is a form of censorship IMHO which is why I used that terminology.

Of course now all the HS users think I'm some guy with an ax to grind with HS because I've accused the admins of censorship, but with the post reinstated, it looks like I'm crazy. Oh well.....

 

[Paul]

hey at least you aren't banned for life like I am.

 

[Neurorad]

lol, paul

Brian, you should have pointed out how HS forums admins are fascist pigs, er, uh, 'aggressive salesman', and don't tolerate honesty.

 

[WayneW]

Obviously I cannot vent on HS forum since it will only be removed as well.

Are you complaining about a censored/edited post? or a deleted post?

There certainly have been cases in the past of HST deleting posts. I assume that an admin could have un-deleted something if they changed their mind.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

FYI, this is not breaking news as ALL of the software companies do this, NOT just HomeSeer.

All of these company specific forums are created and maintained to support their specific software products.

Also, I glanced at the referenced HomeSeer thread and noticed that Rich gave a phone number in THIS post so the OP could call and talk to a rep directly about comparisions to another product.

 

[sic0048]

It was a deleted post, which I view as a form of censorship. However, it does seem that at least for the moment, the admins on the HS board have reinstated the post. It currently shows as post #22.

 

[donstephens]

I fail to understand why this is such a big deal.

Most of the Home Automation software community operates in the same manner dealing with their boards, and it's not a huge leap to see why they might not be happy with someone using their resources to hype up a competitor's system, even though I didn't think the post in question was a sales pitch.

Sad the original question got hijacked...

 

[WayneW]

I don't feel Brian's post #22 was hype or HST bashing.

HST has a history of being heavy-handed in running their board, which they have a legal right to do, but then they also have to live with the fallout of their policies. Sorry, but I don't recall censorship on any other HA forum to the same level as HST. A heavy handed vendor website simply becomes a fan-boy website and people will migrate to other sources of info

HST has failed to address the issue of abandoned plugins for years, so Brian's warning certainly has some merit. But as he stated, it is only one factor in a complicated purchase decision.

 

[WayneW]

Sad the original question got hijacked...

Yes, threads going off in tangents is another one of the fall outs of heavy handedness. If HST had simply left post #22 alone, I doubt any Control4 fans would have bashed HST.

 

[Digger]

HST Forum is nowhere near as bad as SmartHome's Forum where people's posts (not mine) are being deleted when they comment about problems the products have.

 

[WayneW]

HST Forum is nowhere near as bad as SmartHome's Forum where people's posts (not mine) are being deleted when they comment about problems the products have.

True (regarding Insteon product issues), but you are allowed to mention other technologies there (such as Z-wave, UPB, etc). So it isn't t exactly the same thing.

 

[sic0048]

Well, my original post is arguably in violation of their forum rules. Interesting enough, the only way to see the forum rules it to log out and try to register so they are not exactly easily accessable. Keep in mind that I registered on the Homeseer site 5 years ago, so I didn't remember their rules - nor even how to view them until a post given me instructions to log out to view them. I had even earlier sent Rupp (an Admin) a PM asking what the rules where because I couldn't find them when I looked.

That being said, they have one of the most tightly controlled "rules set" that I've seen and they do not allow for any mention of any competitor. I guess they took this stance because Homeseer sells hardware, and they don't want people price shopping on the forums and potentially taking sales from the Homeseer store.

Here is the main portion of the Homeseer forum rules that apply to this situation.

First & foremost: This forum is owned and operated by HomeSeer Technologies as a resource for HomeSeer users and developers. This is not a public home automation forum. As such, we ask that you limit your topics to HomeSeer related issues. Along these lines, posters are prohibited from posting any message that promotes or contains links to companies, products or services that compete directly with HomeSeer Technologies. Any such posting will be subject to deletion or revision and posters who violate this policy may be subject to removal from this message board community. In other words, if HomeSeer sells green widgets, don't post a thread about buying green widgets from someone else. Just use a little common sense and respect; that's all we ask.

Although the administrators and moderators of this message board will attempt to keep

Had I not mentioned CQC, Elvie, or Premise, then it would NOT have been in violation of the rules. But I guess even mentioning those systems by name is a no-no. It reminds me of a time where Homeseer users could not mention a certain fellow Homeseer user who created plugins that were not officially blessed by Homeseer. Only recently did they come to terms with that user and recognized his work.

Anyway, although I unintentially sturred up a hornets nest over there, it seems that Homeseer has backed down and will let my post stand. Atleast they stood up and did that, whether or not they want to admit that the post was removed.

 

[Tink]

The problem is that we alone cannot monitor our board - reason? Here are the latest stats: Threads: 57,363 Posts: 431,591 Members: 30,919 Active Members: 1,501 So, we have other moderators that help us, and it is easier for them to shoot first, then ask questions. If they are not sure, they ask, and in this case somebody (probably Mark) decided that the mentions of the other products was not done in such a way to violate the rules, so the post was reinstated.

The board has always been a HomeSeer and home automation resource - we allow some pretty far-reaching off-topic discussions, and considering the number of posts each day, are certainly not what I would consider heavy in the censorship. Since I have been with the company some 8+ years, I can recall posts being deleted way back as far as 2002. The only reason people seem to complain about it more is because there are far more people, and people have the mistaken opinion that they have some sort of right to post whatever they want on a message board that we maintain to promote home automation and HomeSeer products.

If I were to go on an Intuit board and mention all of the things that I liked about Microsoft Money, I would certainly expect that post to be wiped out. Product comparisons cannot be done in message board forums. You can gather feedback from the forums for the various products you are considering, and you can and should ask questions - even to see if there is a feature comparable to one you like in another product - but the only place where you can post a comparison and not expect it to be removed is a public forum such as Comp.Home.Automation or somebody's public blog.

I don't recall what it is that we did to Wayne to upset him so many years ago, but he never misses a chance to chime in on how 'bad' or 'unfair' we are.

I don't know WHAT people expect us to do as far as plug-ins that are no longer supported by the author. Its as if when a new plug-in was written by a 3rd party and offered to the community, that some people expect us to demand the source code for it just in case the vendor stops supporting it. When I buy and download a new application for my Motorola Droid, and the vendor "disappears" or (as happened in our community recently) "dies", should I expect a refund or support from Motorola, Google, or Verizon? Come on - these are 3rd party plug-ins, you can only fault the 3rd party author!

Any plug-in that we felt was no longer relevant technology or was no longer viable to support that we wrote, had its source code placed into an open-source repository, where anybody could get a copy and make changes. We even put in a source control system (CVS) so people could work on it together. We got NO INTEREST whatsoever from people, and the whole system faded away without anybody complaining about it missing. So I am open for serious suggestions on how we should have or should now fix that issue - I would love to hear the ideas.


Tink

 

[Steve]

I should learn to keep my nose out of these things and just stick to automation and fun stuff which is why we are all here but since I saw this thread shortly after it was posted and happened to go look at the HS thread I know exactly what happened. It disturbed me enough to where I felt I needed to bring it up. The sad part is since there is no form of tracking or change indications the whole thread kind of morphs into a jumbled mess where nobody knows exactly what was said or done. The only time (at least here on this forum too) you know when a post is deleted is if someone further done quotes something from the deleted post. In this case on the HS thread since I read it I know exactly what was there but I did not copy or quote anything so of course you can choose not to believe me even though I have nothing to gain or lose by simply telling the truth, followed by my opinion.

Brian's post was in fact removed like he said. It was not there last night shortly after this thread was started. But there was was another post in that thread which was there last night but is now deleted. It was from Rupp who replied to Brian saying his post was deleted because it violated HS forum policies and he included a quote similar to the one above with several words bolded and in red.

After that the whole thing started changing and turning into damage control that tried to make HS not look like the censorship bullies. And these are the events and lies that have actually upset me more than the original censorship.

Shortly after Rupp's admission of the deletion and showing the policy, Rich said "It might be a good idea to just give us a call at 603-471-2816, Mark can tell you the pros and cons of each system as we know quite a bit about most of them. While we are biased to HS, we have no problem recommending another system if it fits your specific needs." where it is clear HS will in fact talk about competitive products, but I guess they just can't be mentioned on their website. Maybe this, combined with this thread here, made Rich or someone at HS rethink Rupp's actions in deleting the post. Even that would have been acceptable, no no, instead of simply putting the post back with a note, we get:

Originally Posted by sic0048
You have no problem recommending other systems if it fits your needs?

I guess you have no problems censoring my posts too! If I stated something that was untrue, then I could understand someone from HS posting to correct or clarify my post. But to simply delete it because it highlights one potential issue with HS is just wrong!

Shame on you HS.

Your post is showing fine here, but it does break forums rules so it may disappear in the future.
http://board.homeseer.com/register.php

and

None of us removed it. Are you sure?

and

Running to another board to complain about what? That was a very mature thing to do. Especially after Rich offered to help. Wow!

C'mon Rupp, that is just a boldface lie and that what bugs the hell out of me about this situation. Man up and admit you initially deleted (or knew it was and explained why) the post and hid behind the forum policy instead of deleting your own post and trying to make it sound like you have no idea what happened.

It is in fact these denials and damage control tactics that sour me on HS. I would have much more respect if the people would just admit to actions and either apologize if wrong or have the stones to defend their actions if justified.

I know that Rupp means well and tries very hard (probably harder than alot of us) but good Lord, stop the damn lying and damage control. Be up-front about things and at least I would have so much more respect for you personally and the products you represent. In the end HS always seems to do the right thing but it shouldn't always be a bloody mess getting there. I can see why this mention of other products perhaps initially upset HS admins (even though I personally don't think it was saleslike or damaging in any way) and if someone acted hastily then so be it. But dangit, tell the truth and be honest about what happened and move on.

I do not use Homeseer personally but I also have no problem with it. In fact when I talk about products on this forum I always mention it and say it is a good product. But the fact is, it is a small competitive market with several products that are good and have their own strengths and weaknesses. A product should sell based on its own merits and the mere mention of a competitive products name should not illicit the actions that happened here. I agree their should be no links, ads or testimonials for other products, but if HS is so worried that the mere mention of a competitive product will be damaging, well, then there are other issues. People will choose a product based on their own personal list and comparisons to other products create a healthy atmosphere.

Anyway, I just hope HS realizes this could have been handled better and just encourages honesty. I would have so much more respect for seeing a 'possible' wrong action followed either by a defense or retraction and/or apology rather than posts being manipulated, lies told and trying to make the 'offender' look bad. This is just good business and support, nothing personal.

Edit: It took me a while to type this out and I in fact started before I read Tink's reply. I agree with many of his points but I don't think much comparison was done in the post in question, but I do see how 'check out...' could be taken negatively. But I do disagree with

but the only place where you can post a comparison and not expect it to be removed is a public forum such as Comp.Home.Automation or somebody's public blog.

Actually the right answer is right here on CocoonTech, where posts don't get censored and there is a free flow of information, good, bad or otherwise.

 

[Rupp]

I should learn to keep my nose out of these things and just stick to automation and fun stuff which is why we are all here but since I saw this thread shortly after it was posted and happened to go look at the HS thread I know exactly what happened. It disturbed me enough to where I felt I needed to bring it up. The sad part is since there is no form of tracking or change indications the whole thread kind of morphs into a jumbled mess where nobody knows exactly what was said or done. The only time (at least here on this forum too) you know when a post is deleted is if someone further done quotes something from the deleted post. In this case on the HS thread since I read it I know exactly what was there but I did not copy or quote anything so of course you can choose not to believe me even though I have nothing to gain or lose by simply telling the truth, followed by my opinion.

Brian's post was in fact removed like he said. It was not there last night shortly after this thread was started. But there was was another post in that thread which was there last night but is now deleted. It was from Rupp who replied to Brian saying his post was deleted because it violated HS forum policies and he included a quote similar to the one above with several words bolded and in red.

After that the whole thing started changing and turning into damage control that tried to make HS not look like the censorship bullies. And these are the events and lies that have actually upset me more than the original censorship.

Shortly after Rupp's admission of the deletion and showing the policy, Rich said "It might be a good idea to just give us a call at 603-471-2816, Mark can tell you the pros and cons of each system as we know quite a bit about most of them. While we are biased to HS, we have no problem recommending another system if it fits your specific needs." where it is clear HS will in fact talk about competitive products, but I guess they just can't be mentioned on their website. Maybe this, combined with this thread here, made Rich or someone at HS rethink Rupp's actions in deleting the post. Even that would have been acceptable, no no, instead of simply putting the post back with a note, we get:

Originally Posted by sic0048
You have no problem recommending other systems if it fits your needs?

I guess you have no problems censoring my posts too! If I stated something that was untrue, then I could understand someone from HS posting to correct or clarify my post. But to simply delete it because it highlights one potential issue with HS is just wrong!

Shame on you HS.

Your post is showing fine here, but it does break forums rules so it may disappear in the future.
http://board.homeseer.com/register.php

and

None of us removed it. Are you sure?

and

Running to another board to complain about what? That was a very mature thing to do. Especially after Rich offered to help. Wow

!

C'mon Rupp, that is just a boldface lie and that what bugs the hell out of me about this situation. Man up and admit you initially deleted (or knew it was and explained why) the post and hid behind the forum policy instead of deleting your own post and trying to make it sound like you have no idea what happened.

It is in fact these denials and damage control tactics that sour me on HS. I would have much more respect if the people would just admit to actions and either apologize if wrong or have the stones to defend their actions if justified.

I know that Rupp means well and tries very hard (probably harder than alot of us) but good Lord, stop the damn lying and damage control. Be up-front about things and at least I would have so much more respect for you personally and the products you represent. In the end HS always seems to do the right thing but it shouldn't always be a bloody mess getting there. I can see why this mention of other products perhaps initially upset HS admins (even though I personally don't think it was saleslike or damaging in any way) and if someone acted hastily then so be it. But dangit, tell the truth and be honest about what happened and move on.

I do not use Homeseer personally but I also have no problem with it. In fact when I talk about products on this forum I always mention it and say it is a good product. But the fact is, it is a small competitive market with several products that are good and have their own strengths and weaknesses. A product should sell based on its own merits and the mere mention of a competitive products name should not illicit the actions that happened here. I agree their should be no links, ads or testimonials for other products, but if HS is so worried that the mere mention of a competitive product will be damaging, well, then there are other issues. People will choose a product based on their own personal list and comparisons to other products create a healthy atmosphere.

Anyway, I just hope HS realizes this could have been handled better and just encourages honesty. I would have so much more respect for seeing a 'possible' wrong action followed either by a defense or retraction and/or apology rather than posts being manipulated, lies told and trying to make the 'offender' look bad. This is just good business and support, nothing personal.

Edit: It took me a while to type this out and I in fact started before I read Tink's reply.

"Shortly after Rupp's admission of the deletion and showing the policy, Rich " I'm not sure where you saw this information. For your information I didn't delete any of that thread so please don't accuse me of anything. I just checked the thread and there are no deletions from that post as best I can tell so I'm not sure what all of this is about.