How to handle multi-gang switch boxes and extra switches

[hagak]

So my house is a mid-70s built house and the electrician decided that everything needed to be 3-way even if the other switch was in the same room within 6 feet and every light have its own switch even if it did not make sense to ever have the 2 sconces in the room on without each other!.

Which means while I add home automation to my house I am finding that I have more switch gang space than I need. In some cases I am just eliminating the silly 3-ways and can just put a blank over the single gang box (may actually remove it entirely in one case cause in 7 years I never used that silly located 3-way).

However in other cases such as our upstairs landing area where we have 3 wall sconces that are all wired to a 3-gang box and individually switched. The total load on the 3 lights combined is only 250W so they are not separated for load issue just plan silly I guess. So I could easily just wire them together to share a single switch but then I end up with 2 empty space in the box and would look a little silly on the wall. Should I just give each its own insteon switch? Note that I need to use the inline linc since the house is also not wired neutral to switch . So giving each a switch plus an inline linc gets pricey. Other option I could do is remove the box all together and replace it with a single gang, this of course requires a good bit of work but would leave a cleaner look. Only concern with this is can anyone give me a good reason why I or someone else ever want the sconces individually switched when all 3 light the same hallway area?

 

[Sandpiper]

You could always install cheap dummy switches which don't do anything other than look better than blanks.

 

[hagak]

You could always install cheap dummy switches which don't do anything other than look better than blanks.

Yeah while good idea, I know my mental state could not handle a switch that does nothing. Would rather it do something stupid silly than nothing .

 

[standon]

I have a couple dummy switches that came with my house... I find no matter which gang it's in I keep wanting to turn them all on before entering and all off before exiting the room. Even when the light comes on, I still loop back to press the dead switch.

 

[etc6849]

You could explore putting in single gang zone controllers (if using z-wave) to replace the blank spots. I had a blank spot where a fan circuit was pre-wired, but never installed so that's what I used it for.

 

[wuench]

I have done it several ways. I have wired multiple loads to one switch and put a blank in for the other gang(s). I have just put in switches anyway, with a keypad, so I never really use the switches, but they are a good indicator of the actual state of the load (in case Insteon fails me). And I have replaced the box and done the drywall work, which is the best solution if you are willing to put forth the effort.

The one thing I tried that I didn't really care for was putting Inlinelinc's in for the loads. The design for the Insteon inline modules are really to be placed inside a box, like a ceiling fan electrical box or outdoor floods, etc. So it is small and goes into the box itself, it just sits in there loose. Since it has some metal parts that made me a little nervous to have it crammed in a box with all the other wiring. I wish they made versions that screw onto the box itself, but that you could still cover with the wall plate. I guess it all depends how much room you have in the box.

 

[apostolakisl]

The only real solution to the problem is to tear it out, pull the wires into smaller gang boxes and patch the drywall. You will have a lot of extra wires which you should still pull into the boxes and cap so that no one ever hooks up one of the other ends and has a hot wire free in the wall.

 

[hagak]

The one thing I tried that I didn't really care for was putting Inlinelinc's in for the loads. The design for the Insteon inline modules are really to be placed inside a box, like a ceiling fan electrical box or outdoor floods, etc. So it is small and goes into the box itself, it just sits in there loose. Since it has some metal parts that made me a little nervous to have it crammed in a box with all the other wiring. I wish they made versions that screw onto the box itself, but that you could still cover with the wall plate. I guess it all depends how much room you have in the box.

The metal parts of the inline linc should be tied to ground so it really should be of no concern. Same as if the j-box was metal, no issues with that.

 

[hagak]

The only real solution to the problem is to tear it out, pull the wires into smaller gang boxes and patch the drywall. You will have a lot of extra wires which you should still pull into the boxes and cap so that no one ever hooks up one of the other ends and has a hot wire free in the wall.

Yep. Not sure I want to put in the sheet rock work. Also after looking in one of the 3-gang boxes i want to reduce to a single gang, I would have a LOT of wires in that 1-gang and with the added size of the Insteon switch I would be afraid of not enough space. So I may just leave it and think of other HA uses I could do with 2 extra switches .

 

[apostolakisl]

Yep. Not sure I want to put in the sheet rock work. Also after looking in one of the 3-gang boxes i want to reduce to a single gang, I would have a LOT of wires in that 1-gang and with the added size of the Insteon switch I would be afraid of not enough space. So I may just leave it and think of other HA uses I could do with 2 extra switches .

I'm trying to remember exactly, but I do believe there are boxes that are double gang but only single gang opens to the surface. In other words, the second spot is tucked behind the drywall. That should take care of the room for the extra wires.

 

[Mattbarrett]

I'm trying to remember exactly, but I do believe there are boxes that are double gang but only single gang opens to the surface. In other words, the second spot is tucked behind the drywall. That should take care of the room for the extra wires.

You've got 1900 boxes which are 4" square and 4 11/16 boxes which are 5" square, if you use deep side bracket versions of those then install a 1 gang mud ring you would end up with a 1 gang opening with a whole lot of room inside for wires. They also do make plastic boxes with one gang open and one hidden but the metal boxes have way more cubic inches to work with.

When I have to do what the OP needs I just open the wall, make the changes and have a good painter come in and patch/paint. Man those guys make it look so easy, not realy a big deal.

 

[apostolakisl]

When I have to do what the OP needs I just open the wall, make the changes and have a good painter come in and patch/paint. Man those guys make it look so easy, not realy a big deal.

I wrote a post on how to patch drywall a while back. Here it is again:

You should learn the drywall patch technique. I have developed a way to do it combining several tricks I found watching this old house, the internet, and other random shows.

1) Measure and mark out around your hole and cut back so that it is a nice and pure rectangle. Razor knife usually is best by drywall saw sometimes is better. If the hole isn't more than 6 inches in any dimension, no need to support it. If it is quite large you can take some scraps of wood and run a couple of them across the opening using drywall screws to hold it to the wall at the edges.
2) Score and snap a piece of drywall that is 1.5 inches bigger than your hole in both dimensions.
3) On the back of that rectangle, measure and mark a rectangle about 1/4 in smaller than the hole in the wall (slightly more than 3/4 in margin around the edge)
4) Score along those lines, snap the drywall and then peel the 3/4 strips off of the paper on the face side. So now you have a piece of drywall that fits into the hole with an extra 3/4 in of paper hanging around the edges. This will serve as your joint tape. It works better than tape because it is firmly attached to your patch piece preventing from falling back into the wall. It also means not dealing with another edge to feather and seeing a raised area when the wall is viewed tangentially.
5) Mark the wall around your hole slightly more than 3/4 in margins. Cut the paper with a razor knife and peel away the paper on the wall leaving the gypsum. This allows you to counter sink the paper from the patch, again, keeping edge feathering to a minimum and preventing the "hump" in the wall that you might see if viewed tangentially.
6) Butter up the back of the paper and along the edges of the patch piece.
7) Stuff it in the hole and use your drywall spatula to set in the patch forcing the extra joint compound out the sides. This step doesn't need to be perfect, but you want to make sure everything is flush or slightly below the plain of the wall had it never been damaged. Always use your spatula moving from the center outward or you may wrinkle up the paper.
8) Let it dry overnight
9) Take a wet sponge and knock off any high spots.
10) Put a second coat of joint compound feather out 6 or 8 inches around the periphery.
11) Let it dry an hour or so
12) Damp sponge it to perfection completely removing any joint compound that got feathered out beyond what was really necessary
13) Let it dry an hour or so
14) Mask off the area so you don't make a mess. Leave several inches of "normal" wall exposed around the area that needs texture.
15) Spray on your texture. Practice first in the back yard.
16) Let it dry an hour or so.
17) Use a mini roller to roll you paint on.
18) Let it dry an hour or two
19) Roll on a second coat this time feather the paint with an almost dry roller a couple feet out from the edges.
20) Done.

The first time you do do this it will take a little while. Once you have done it a few times, you will find that it takes almost no time becuase you will just need a few minutes for each step so it won't really seem like it is taking up any time at all. I have one box in my garage that is dedicated to this. Everything is in that box so I just take it to the work site. Literally, it can take longer hunting down all the stuff than it takes to actually do it if you don't keep a nice "kit" at hand.

NOTE: If you use the joint compound that has a hardener in it, rather than the water soluable type, you can do this whole thing from beginning to end in a half hour. But it is unforgiving to the not so talented featherer.

 

[sda]

I like the technique of using the drywall itself as the tape. I will try that next time.

Leave the spatula in the kitchen and use a drywall knife.
Lowes has a variety of stainless steel drywall tools that don't rust.

Joint compound comes dry in a bag or premixed in a box/pail. Unless you're doing a lot of patching at once, I would recommend
getting the bag and mixing up what you need. I've been using 45 minute mud.

If you need to support the patch (as mentioned in step 1)
If the hole is 4x4 or larger, I use some strips of 1x2 that are at least 2" longer than the hole on each end.
Work them into hole the and either glue and clamp, or add some screws for extra support.
If you use screws, put the screws at least 1" from the edge of the hole.
Any closer to the edge and the drywall may start breaking up

For larger holes, sometimes it makes sense to make a stud bay wide patch.
Cut the drywall back to the studs, screw or tack some 2x2'x or 2x4's to the studs for support.

 

[video321]

I've used the drywall paper as the tape for plenty of fixes and it works great. Can't even begin to count how many single and double-gang boxes I've moved around the house for my LV runs :unsure:

 

[apostolakisl]

I've used the drywall paper as the tape for plenty of fixes and it works great. Can't even begin to count how many single and double-gang boxes I've moved around the house for my LV runs :unsure:

When you do the trick of cutting the drywall patch such that the paper hangs over all around the edges 3/4 inch, it is self supporting, so unless the patch is big, you need nothing behind it. It really works well and is very fast. And by peeling back the paper around the edges of the hole in the wall such that the paper connected to the patch sets flush at the level of the original paper, you don't have extra thickness. No extra thickness means very little feathering. You can patch a single gang hole in the wall and have the total area including all the feather to be no larger than 10 inches accross (or less). So if it is hallway or other room where you look at it tangentially, there is no bump out.

The powder mix mud is nice since it hardnes instead of drying meaning that it is fast. You can do an entire patch job including texture and paing in a couple hours. That's really important for a pro since they can do it all in one visit to the house. But if you live there, that doesn't matter so you can do 10 minutes of work today, 10 tomorrow, 10 the next day and then be done and it really only took you 30 minutes. One important point with the setting compound is that it must be dry sanding, which means dust. The premix stuff you can wash it off the wall after it dries. On textured walls, the wet sandable compound feathers great because you can gradually taper in how much you wash off so that it gradually fills more and more of the texture. Then when you re-texture the wall afterwards you can keep it to a smaller area with a great blend.

Really the only issue with patches that I can't solve is that the paint never matches. Once paint has been on the wall a while, it's sheen changes slightly and the new paint will never be quite the same, even if it is the exact same paint out of the same can as the original. Mostly you only see this in tangential view with a light on the other side. I've found that if you make your second coat of paint very dry on the roller and feather it out a couple feet, it tends to dissapear, but never completely. Only repainting the whole wall seems to make it truly invisible.