HVAC Brand Opinions

[tmbrown97]

Hi All,
 
This seems to be a topic many people have researched around here - and one I'm not well versed in (I know how to work on an AC and how it works but I know nothing about what brands are good or not).
 
The time has come to replace our AC - I say this while sitting in a 83 degree livingroom at 10:30PM.  We knew this was coming and did a lot to limp our system through last year but now it's just time.  We have the old refrigerant which has basically all leaked out it would seem and when I was in the attic today there was so much air blowing out of the air handler I'm sure it as a substantial percentage of my cooling being lost. 
 
We currently have a SEER 13 5-ton single stage AC with gas furnace.  We have a 2-story 4000 sq ft house that's about 7 years old and fairly efficient.  The current system is zoned for 2 zones; but I have the RCS 4-zone communicating zone controller installed so I have room to add more and would love to.
 
I really plan to be here about 5 more years so I'm on the fence about efficiency rating to go for - but I also spend a ton on cooling costs with electric rates around $.39/kwh.
 
I've been quoted $4500 for bare bones replacement of the HVAC and not much else; we start getting bids on Wednesday for total replacement.  We'll be paying cash and not financing as well.  I'm somewhere between having a back-alley guy I trust install the parts without the same big name and warranty or having a whole brand new system put in and just sucking up the $10-$15K.
 
What should I be looking for??  Currently there are parts of the house that don't regulate as well; the zones are just upstairs vs downstairs, but there are kinda 3 distinct areas upstairs that heat/cool their own way and I'm currently having to adjust dampers once in a while to affect balancing.
 
What brands are good and which should be avoided?  Do the higher seer units introduce more potential problems?  What pitfalls can I avoid through others' experience here?  This is an unnerving place to be for me because I haven't met an HVAC person who didn't come off as a total crook.

 

[pete_c]

Here the whole AC thing is related to WAF.  During the summer months the house is kept at some 68F 24/7. 
 
I had my outdoor AC compressor replaced last year. 
 
A friend who owns an HVAC company replaced it.  (owner and not one of the folks that work for him).
 
I've known him/HVAC company for about 25 years.
 
This was #2 to be replaced as I needed to do the same last year in Florida.  Both homes AC units were about 10 years old. 
 
This bugged me as  in my old home the AC (2 of them for zoned) lasted some 20 years.  He had also replaced those two units sometime in the 1990's.  (very reasonably as it was more of a "barter" type arrangement).
 
He did run into an issue which kind of stumped me relating the the HVAC industry.  The unit was installed; then it failed in two days.
 
The supplier wanted him to repair unit under "warranty" and charge back the distributor for the replacement hardware and not the labor of installation.
 
That said he did remove the new unit and replace it with another new unit. 
 
He was able to do this because he knew someone that worked in the distribution office and was able to circumvent their warranty / repair "process".
 
Not mentioning any names; the distributor was one of a few very large companies in the US that handle distribution of a well know mfg's AC units.
 
I see this as a sad commentary on the industry.  It was twice the work and he did return with a new unit in a sealed shipping box on a pallet.

 

[Neurorad]

I've been having intermittent issues with a Trane controller board, after 2 years.

 

[Frunple]

Keep in mind of the new change to the current "freon" used. Apparently all current AC units will need to be changed to accommodate the new gas that will be used. I'm being told none will be backwards compatible for some odd reason.

 

[pete_c]

Not paying attention here; but did hear (birthday party last weekend) something about an 80/20 rule and a major push right now from MFG to distributors to HVAC companies no matter what.
 
I didn't really ask though what that was all about.

 

[RAM]

About 10 years ago before I replaced our 20+ year old furnace and A/C I did a lot of research and found the most info at an HVAC bulletin board (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1). The overwhelming opinion of the professionals there is that the installation is probably more  important than what brand of equipment gets installed. In the OP case, with probable zoning required, make sure your working with someone who is experienced and get lots of opinions/recommendations from previous customers.

 

[picta]

In our old house we had Sears install our AC, they came to evaluate the site and suggested appropriately sized unit. Weather it was luck or they really know their stuff, the AC worked for 6 years before we sold the house. It was a basic unit, but we used it with 6 zone RCS controller and that saved a lot of $$$.

 

[apostolakisl]

I put Carrier Infinity units in my house.  It is a new house and is sealed up very well.  Having great insulation makes your HVAC work a lot better, not just less.  Basically, great insulation makes balancing a system way easier and allows less need for zoning.  Simply put, the outside environment has much less impact on the temp in any given room, so East/West/North/South/Upstairs/Downstairs/Interior locations have less affect on temp.  Since outside conditions can fluctuate wildly, static balancing doesn't work well when different parts of your house are being accosted by the outside conditions very differently from one time of day to the next or from one time of year to the next.
 
Anyway, I have been quite happy with it for 4 years.  It runs silent and you don't feel the air blowing when it is on.  It really is just impossible to tell when it is on or off without looking out at the compressor fan (and even those are pretty quiet).
 
I have also been quite pleased with my electric bills.  I have 2 3 ton units (19 SEER) and a 2 ton unit (SEER 18?  i forget).  This is for 6,000sf/high ceilings in a hot climate (100-105 daily highs for 30 to 60 days/year)  Aside from the 3 zones inherent to having 3 units, I do not have any further zoning and the temps are very even (except the bedroom at night which we freeze on purpose).  As I mentioned, this probably has as much if not more to do with spray foam insulation and high efficiency windows.
 
Sizing and Installation are very important as mentioned.  I paid for a manual J to be done separate from the installers.  Of course you are replacing a system, so you should have a pretty good idea how many tons you need based on the current unit performance, unless it was performing at less than its rated tonnage.  2 stage units I think are a good investment.
 
Unfortunately it sounds like you have an attic unit in an un-insulated attic.  I never could understand the concept of putting the hvac unit and all its duct work in a space that is the most possible un-hospitable place.  The ducts and the unit are only insulated to like r-8, they contain 45 degree air, and the attic could be way over 100.  Plus any leaks are just full out wasted.  I spray foamed the underside of my roof deck so the attic is technically inside the house.  I suspect this also is very helpful regarding efficiency, plus the attic is now climate controlled (plus or minus) usable space.  Also, the "pooky" that seals the ducts up doesn't get hammered by the high heat that dries it out and makes it fall apart (like it did at my old house which was 1/3 the size and cost the same to cool).
 
The newer infinity type units (other brands have their own equivalent) are very much computer controlled.  They self diagnose and self adjust so the installers don't need to be genius' to get them running their best.  Great design is probably more important than great install.  But since it is a retrofit, you might just have to go with what is there.  Of course the install still needs to be done well with good welds, proper evacuation, proper mounting, proper sealing, and you get the idea.

 

[etc6849]

My opinion is go with 13 SEER if you live in a builder's style home (unless you are going to stay there).  Unless it's a high end custom home, I doubt you'll recoup any additional money you spend when you sell in 5 years.
 
The brand really doesn't matter.  Just buy one made in the U.S. that uses quality brand name components (Emerson, Copeland, AO Smith, etc...).  I wouldn't touch a Chinese made unit.  I just don't trust Chinese companies not to cut corners on the thickness of copper lines, etc.
 
Also, if the unit is only seven years old, I would question why the whole system needs replaced and have multiple folks diagnose what's wrong.  Replacing a 7 year old furnace is stupid and just adds A LOT of unnecessary labor costs as it will take 2-3 times as long to do the install.  You can order a new exact replacement A-Coil and outside condenser that is compatible with R-410A and still keep the new condensers warranty (usually).  The whole install shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours.  Personally, I don't think anyone's time is worth more than $100/hour no matter what their skill set is; especially when most HVAC techs go through a 6 month school and may/may not know what they are doing.

 

[tmbrown97]

Thanks guys - been working through this for the last week or so... ironically I had one of my HVAC buddies drop by and he put 6lbs of R22 in the thing and it was awesome - for 36 hours... Friday I was downright cold - then saturday morning (on a 110° day) i noticed it stopped getting colder - and went outside to see oil splatter on the outdoor unit.  It blew a solder joint and dumped the whole 18lbs of freon.  That's it... I'm done.
 
Lou - I talked to a guy about the Carrier Infinity today - that sounds like my dream system to be honest.  I didn't get his final numbers yet, but ballpark it sounded like about $18K.  Step it down a bit to all new 95+ efficiency furnace, new 2-stage air handler and 2-stage AC unit, and it's down about $12K.
 
A couple points - I believe California won't allow anything under 15 seer now; so no matter what I'm getting an upgrade; and also keep in mind my power rates - a 20% savings would be pretty significant.  I could probably get away with keeping the furnace and maybe even the air handler if we redid the AC completely - but there's a decent part of me that wants to get into a 2-stage just to avoid the hot/cold cycles you can see here (along with exactly when the seal joint blew!)
 

 
I definitely agree with finding a good installer which is why I've had several out.  I think I found the company I want to deal with today so now it's a matter of picking the right system - he can do the Carrier Infinity if I want to spring for it, or he's talking about the Rheem as being pretty cost effective.
 
I've also since learned that the way the builder's HVAC company does things is a bit weird - they use this big box made of fiberboard and make their own weird damper system in it (every person who's come out has commented on it and is familiar with it, and always replaces it) - but the morons set up the dampers to open when called, not close the zone that's not called - so it's easy for a zone to fail closed and freeze up the system.
 
etc: what you've mentioned is definitely an option, and I've had it quoted for as low as $4500 to replace JUST the AC portion.  That's probably fine - the furnace keeps up just fine, although I was in there repairing a gas leak at the start of winter...  but around the air handler is definitely a problem with all the leakage and it wouldn't do anything to increase comfort, that's for sure.  I guess it depends on if it'll get me $8K worth of savings and comfort to spring for the rest - that's what we're mulling over right now.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Is your compressor shot or do you just have a leak in the cooling lines between it and the air handler?  Also, sometimes the king valves on the compressor leak and need to be tighten (vibration will loosen their caps) or they will just be the cause of the leak and need replaced.
 
Did they perform a bubble leak test of the exposed lines and especially those valves and surrounding areas?
 
Also, you can get a leak detection dye put in with the freon and it will provide a greenish florescence when exposed to a black light.  This is the way you troubleshoot 'trouble-some' leaks that can't be found with the bubble leak test.
 
Not saying your strategy of getting a new unit is wrong, just want to make sure all angles were considered!   Plus, fixing the leak (well depending on where it is) might be a lot cheaper. 
 
It sounds though that you have a pretty significant leak that could easily be found.  Of course, if it is the shot compressor causing it, this solution is a no brainer.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'm all for saving money and limping this thing along forever, but failure is eminent.  We put a megger on it and failed miserably so all my efforts will just be a matter of time before the thing shorts out for good.
 
FWIW, it's obnoxiously noisy, it costs me a fortune to run, and the whole install was pretty shotty - so while I really don't *want* to spend this money, I think it's probably the right thing to do.
 
My brother-in-law used to be in the industry so he has some good contacts - they're gonna come out tomorrow too and give me the "friends and family" pricing so we'll see what that looks like.  I gotta make a decision fast - i'm tired of 80° temps upstairs.

 

[etc6849]

If your buddy added 6 lbs of refrigerant, he should have checked for a leak first.  Otherwise, he is violating EPA regulations and just wasted a lot of your money on expensive R-22 for no reason.  The guy is your friend so I'll be nice, but techs that just gas and go do not know what they're doing and should lose their EPA certificate (IMHO).  Such a large leak should have been child's play to find (even with no HVAC experience).  It sounds like there may be more than one leak and you just happened to have a solder joint fail after he added the refrigerant, but I doubt it.  I'd ask for my money back on the refrigerant.  I think you know this already, but refrigerant should never need to be added unless there's a leak.
 
The most common places for leaks are any spots where vibrations or rubbing occur (including solder joints) or your a-coil.  A-coil issues are very common now due to chinese drywall issues that release sulfur (eats away copper) and/or poor a-coil construction (small wall thickness of copper lines etc...).  With a leak as large as yours, one can look for an oily residue and verify with soap bubbles.  IR leak dedectors are the best ones IMHO for finding smaller leaks.  Leaking 6lbs+ in 36 hours should be easy to find.
 
Meggering checks a wire's insulation resistance (in this case the insulation on the compressor's windings).  I've never heard of this being done on a small single phase motor and this seems like over kill to me.  Further, if he applied too high of voltage (which is very likely given he's an HVAC tech and not an electrician), he could easily damage your compressor's windings.  Meggering is best left to qualified folks who are properly trained and experienced in motor and transformer preventive maintenance.
 
If you mean he just checked operating amps, did he clean the outside condenser coil first?  Dirty coils will make the compressor work harder and thus mean an increase in operating amps; this is common sense.  Any tech that knows what they are doing would have also cleaned dirty condenser coils before adding refrigerant, otherwise you can overcharge a unit.  By the way, you should be cleaning your condenser coils periodically. 
 
EDIT: If you mean he simply checked resistance (ohms) with a volt ohm meter, I would contact the manufacturer of the compressor to find out what's an acceptable range.  Obviously, it's best to trend winding resistance over time so without more data points I don't think anyone can tell you it will absolutely fail in x years.
 
PS:  Failure is not always eminent.  A properly maintained HVAC system can last 20 years.  These systems are easy to diagnose and repair, you just have to find someone who is experienced.  70% of HVAC techs either do not understand how to do their job or will try to sell you something you don't need on purpose (for job security with their employer).  You said the leak was fixed last year, was it?  There's rarely a reason for a repeat call if a tech is competent and fixes a problem correctly.

 

[tmbrown97]

etc - I appreciate the detailed response.  I've had a lot of issues with this thing - it's late and I'm tired but I'll try and cover them...
 

1. This is an 8yr old house but it was a tract home built as cheaply and crappily as possible during the height of the housing boom.  The HVAC contractor has a reputation for halfassing things and rushing through.
2. Last year I had a big problem where rusty water was pouring out the secondary line - staining the side of my house and causing lots of problems.  4 of 4 AC techs came out and said the system was shot and needed to be replaced...  I didn't have the money.  Eventually I found a good tech who actually lifted the coil out and yanked the drain pan and replaced it - the old one had a V-Shape rusted out section where it was literally rusted through causing water to fill the secondary pan AND drain out the secondary drain.
3. Our first summer the AC didn't keep up; this house was a rental by the previous owners before I bought it as a foreclosure; there was no regular maintenance done and nobody living in the house pursuing warranty issues.
4. Last year I did all the PM's and tuned the system up and it worked pretty well... 
5. This year it was working OK until the dampers failed to operate a couple times - the idiots who originally installed the HVAC set up dampers that fail closed - and after freezing up the system and running completely closed twice, the cooling became ineffective - I'm not sure the technical details, but it seems that when it froze up the system and it iced over, it also caused some high pressure that pushed out the refrigerant.
6. My tech buddy worked for the HVAC contractor back when my house was built - there was something about these York units - apparently they'd occasionally blow this particular joint way too easily - sometimes just from unloading them...  Sure I suspect he may have overcharged the unit a bit causing the failure - but I'm not going to chastise him over it.
7. The copper lines run are of too small a diameter according to MFR's for the distance we're running
8. One of the valves or jets or something (over my head) was for a 4 ton unit restricting the flow of refrigerant into the coil - the distributor caught this...

 
What I get out of all this is that the initial system was rigged and installed as cheaply as humanly possible - and needs to be upgraded.
 
This guy is no electrician and he uses a generic megger that has about 20 lights that go from good to effed - and mine lit up the "effed".   I've also read about how actually running the megger test can make things worse, etc - but given everything else - it does make sense.  The inrush current that this thing consumes on start and the godawful noise it makes certainly sounds like it's on its last leg!!

 

[rsw686]

Replacing the lineset is not typical when swapping out units. In my home doing so would require ripping out a huge amount of drywall. I would make sure it is included in the quote.
 
It sounds like incompetent techs have been working on your system. I'm at a loss of where to find a good HVAC tech. My house is 10, but before I purchased the upstairs unit was swapped out when the house was around 7 years told. The second summer I had issues with the unit running 24/7 and not bringing the temp down. Guy comes out and adds refrigerant to the unit and then tells me hes not sure of the problem and to not run it. Next day he brings another tech who I overhead mentioning the unit was overcharged. He proceeds to dumps the extra refrigerant into the air and determines its a bad TXV proportioning valve. After replacing the valve they wanted me to pay for it and the refrigerant even though the unit has a 5 year warranty. He finally accepted a few hundred cash for labor.