Just impulse bought my security(Elk) and lighting(Insteon). What did i miss?

riverhawk

Member

tmbrown97

Senior Member
It's hard to say - do you have enough inputs/outputs?  I see a backbox which is for the KP2 but see two KPNAVs above so I can only assume you got a KP2 in the kit (I personally stick with the KP2's - I see no true benefit to the NAV; in fact, I see a few drawbacks from what a physical keypad gives me).  You have some Insteon stuff - only you'll know if that's enough...  
 
I wasn't a fan of the small enclosure that the Elk package came with so I repurposed that as a subpanel in the garage with XIN/XOVR/M1RB and one or two other things and used a 28" in the last house - that's a good size for an Elk panel IMO.  Also, I didn't care for a central loud speaker - I really like having the KP2's with the flushmounted SP12 speaker behind - that way the alarm has certain points of presence - the keypad and audio come from the same place, and when you're in front of a keypad, you're also in front of a speaker so it just makes more sense than hitting a button on a keypad and listening for an announcement across the house.  
 
For some of the other stuff, honestly, it'll come down to a matter of person opinion.  For instance, the Garage Door monitoring and the Motions - I wouldn't put those through Insteon.  I'd keep them in the Elk by using their motion sensors and a garage door contact sensor coupled with one of their transmitters - since you have the 2-way interface anyway.  The cost is probably about a wash... and for most things, I find security motions to be sensitive enough for automation with the added benefit of being for security too.  Of course that depends entirely on your intended uses.
 
Just my $.02 - do with it as you see fit.  FWIW, When I placed my initial order, I then set it up on the bench (read:coffee table with wires strewn everywhere for a few days) - I believe it was one more nearly equally sized order before I went for the install, then yet another once it was in and I saw pieces I wanted to add/change (speaker vs. siren; more outputs, etc).  It's OK for it to be an iterative process.  Also, I did things like install the OmniStat LONG before the Elk was even bought knowing it would ultimately be there... drawing a blank now, but I think there were a some other items I put in early knowing they'd eventually be automated even if they weren't from day 1.
 

206

Member
I'm doing a similar project on my 27 yo house. My place came with a busted Ademco Vista security system with some very basic sensor support. The exterior doors are all wired, a 4 wire smoke circuit was connected in a star config with no eol relay nor terminator, a 2 wire heat circuit and a couple wired motion detectors. I think this was your basic builder quality security system.

I've cleaned up the wiring issues and added more 4 wire smokes, added 2 wire heat detectors in the garage, added wired CO detectors, more wired motion detectors to cover all entrance areas, wired glass breaks to cover the likely entrance areas, and I added wired water detectors in the likely places (water htrs, ice makers, washer, plumbing in potential freeze areas), and wired temp sensors in the plumbing areas. I'm using 26 zones on the Elk so far, so I've got an XIN, and I added an M1RB relay board since I've already filled the 3 ouputs and needed several more. Ultimately I'm planning on some automated water shutoff based on water and temp sensors.

So far, I'm using Insteon for automated lighting. I've got the garage door kit like you and it works well. I've tied a seperate First Alert smoke system into Insteon through the smoke bridge. The place had a couple 120v smokes that weren't tied in to the security system, so now they will be with this config.

I'm still installing light switches and haven't linked the Elk and Insteon systems yet.

I've got the Nav keypad in the MBR and it's okay. I've got the KP with the prox detector by the garage house entrance. We like swiping the keychain to disarm rather then punching in the code.

You didn't mention your smoke, heat, CO, motion nor glass break sensor approach. As you can tell, I've bit the bullet to wire all this stuff to the Elk. Adding all the wiring (~2k feet so far) in an old house has been a challenge, but I did it because I think it's a more secure system and I won't be dealing with battery replacements for all the sensors.
 

riverhawk

Member
Work2Play said:
It's hard to say - do you have enough inputs/outputs?  I see a backbox which is for the KP2 but see two KPNAVs above so I can only assume you got a KP2 in the kit (I personally stick with the KP2's - I see no true benefit to the NAV; in fact, I see a few drawbacks from what a physical keypad gives me).  You have some Insteon stuff - only you'll know if that's enough...  
 
I wasn't a fan of the small enclosure that the Elk package came with so I repurposed that as a subpanel in the garage with XIN/XOVR/M1RB and one or two other things and used a 28" in the last house - that's a good size for an Elk panel IMO.  Also, I didn't care for a central loud speaker - I really like having the KP2's with the flushmounted SP12 speaker behind - that way the alarm has certain points of presence - the keypad and audio come from the same place, and when you're in front of a keypad, you're also in front of a speaker so it just makes more sense than hitting a button on a keypad and listening for an announcement across the house.  
 
For some of the other stuff, honestly, it'll come down to a matter of person opinion.  For instance, the Garage Door monitoring and the Motions - I wouldn't put those through Insteon.  I'd keep them in the Elk by using their motion sensors and a garage door contact sensor coupled with one of their transmitters - since you have the 2-way interface anyway.  The cost is probably about a wash... and for most things, I find security motions to be sensitive enough for automation with the added benefit of being for security too.  Of course that depends entirely on your intended uses.
 
Just my $.02 - do with it as you see fit.  FWIW, When I placed my initial order, I then set it up on the bench (read:coffee table with wires strewn everywhere for a few days) - I believe it was one more nearly equally sized order before I went for the install, then yet another once it was in and I saw pieces I wanted to add/change (speaker vs. siren; more outputs, etc).  It's OK for it to be an iterative process.  Also, I did things like install the OmniStat LONG before the Elk was even bought knowing it would ultimately be there... drawing a blank now, but I think there were a some other items I put in early knowing they'd eventually be automated even if they weren't from day 1.
 
 
I got the two KPNAVs for the garage entrance and the MBR. I figured the normal KP could go upstairs. I added to my order and got the XIN expander, 28" box, Elk doorbell/phone monitor, and two more speakers for the other keypads(now I'm debating on getting the ones with the microphones based on my other recent thread). I went with the Insteon garage door monitoring because, honestly, I didn't know Elk had one with door control. Would it be a good idea to also put on a wireless sensor for the garage doors since my M1 kit has a wireless transceiver built in(seems like an easy fix)? I also went with the Insteon motions since I wanted them for more automation than security(I get your point of doubling their use though). I have a large dog and figured glass breaks would be better than motions with him wandering everywhere. 
 
 
206 said:
I'm doing a similar project on my 27 yo house. My place came with a busted Ademco Vista security system with some very basic sensor support. The exterior doors are all wired, a 4 wire smoke circuit was connected in a star config with no eol relay nor terminator, a 2 wire heat circuit and a couple wired motion detectors. I think this was your basic builder quality security system.

I've cleaned up the wiring issues and added more 4 wire smokes, added 2 wire heat detectors in the garage, added wired CO detectors, more wired motion detectors to cover all entrance areas, wired glass breaks to cover the likely entrance areas, and I added wired water detectors in the likely places (water htrs, ice makers, washer, plumbing in potential freeze areas), and wired temp sensors in the plumbing areas. I'm using 26 zones on the Elk so far, so I've got an XIN, and I added an M1RB relay board since I've already filled the 3 ouputs and needed several more. Ultimately I'm planning on some automated water shutoff based on water and temp sensors.

So far, I'm using Insteon for automated lighting. I've got the garage door kit like you and it works well. I've tied a seperate First Alert smoke system into Insteon through the smoke bridge. The place had a couple 120v smokes that weren't tied in to the security system, so now they will be with this config.

I'm still installing light switches and haven't linked the Elk and Insteon systems yet.

I've got the Nav keypad in the MBR and it's okay. I've got the KP with the prox detector by the garage house entrance. We like swiping the keychain to disarm rather then punching in the code.

You didn't mention your smoke, heat, CO, motion nor glass break sensor approach. As you can tell, I've bit the bullet to wire all this stuff to the Elk. Adding all the wiring (~2k feet so far) in an old house has been a challenge, but I did it because I think it's a more secure system and I won't be dealing with battery replacements for all the sensors.
 
 
I didn't have time before the sale ended to get into the smoke, thermostat, CO aspect. You have any recommendations?
 
 
BaduFamily said:
Contact sensors for doors/windows?
 
 
I am leaving that to my installer to use whatever generic sensors he's comfortable using. Am I making a mistake in assuming all sensors are roughly equal?
 

206

Member
riverhawk said:
 
 
I didn't have time before the sale ended to get into the smoke, thermostat, CO aspect. You have any recommendations?
After searching here and elsewhere for recommendations, this is what I put in:

System Sensor heat, smoke , CO
135 degree 2 wire heat detectors for kitchen and garage
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/System-Sensor-5603-135-Degree-Heat-Detector-p/system%20sensor%205603.htm
194 degree for attics
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/System-Sensor-5602-194-Degree-Rate-of-Rise-Heat-p/system%20sensor%205602.htm
4 wire i3 smoke
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/System-Sensor-4WTA-B-Four-Wire-Smoke-Detector-p/sys%204wta-b.htm
End of line relay for 4 wire smoke- enables monitoring of signal and power integrity
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y&Search=System+sensor+eol&Submit.x=-199&Submit.y=-251
Reversal relay, install at the controller. Reverses power polarity on 4 wire smoke circuit when one smoke trips, which causes all the smoke sounders to go off in unison. Requires an output port. I haven't installed mine yet...
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Extensive_Search=Y&Search=System+sensor+relay&Submit.x=-199&Submit.y=-251
CO detector
http://www.alarmsystemstore.com/System-Sensor-CO1224T-Carbon-Monoxide-Detector-p/sys-co1224t.htm

For motion and glass break, I went with Bosch:
Motion sensors are small footprint, nice blue swoop indicator, pet friendly
http://www.jmacsupply.com/Bosch_ISC_BDL2_WP12G_p/bosch-isc-bdl2-wp12g.htm
Glass break
http://www.securitystoreusa.com/Bosch-DS1101i-Glassbreak-Detector-p/499784.htm
Bosch glass break test tool - for setting up and ensuring a good location for the sensor
http://resource.boschsecurity.com/documents/Data_sheet_enUS_2656021387.pdf

4 wire water sensors
http://www.hometech.com/hts/products/security/floodstop/gr-2600.html

Temperature sensors
http://www.automatedoutlet.com/Home/Zone-Temperature-Sensors/ELK-M1ZTS

Pleased so far with the install and early life of all this stuff, with the exception of the Elk temperature sensors. They weren't accurate out of the box, and after calibrating at one temperature range, they were off again by 7 degrees or so at a higher temperature range. Royal pain since one of the install locations required crawling and contorting through attic crawl spaces. I should have tested and set up the temp sensors before install.

I got a lot of this stuff through Amazon, since the Prime free shipping made it a wash or cheaper overall than the other places.

Good luck!
 

tmbrown97

Senior Member
I'm on my phone and can't link easily but many of the wireless transmitters can also accept a wired in contact so they'll adapt regular sensors into wireless... From there I added those roll up door contacts that clamp onto the garage door track. They're basically indestructible and very reliable.

The KPNAV doesn't have provisions for the speaker behind that I'm aware of but with a little creativity I'd bet it could be accomplished.
 
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